Oral probiotic as suppositories to avoid SIBO?

[TJ_Fitz]

I'd like to take my probiotics as a rectal suppository going forward, rather than risking SIBO by taking them orally. There are very few rectal probiotic suppositories available on the market, and generally they are extremely expensive. Is it safe to use oral probiotics as a suppository? I'm not even sure a capsule would dissolve down there. One could use a tablet or chewable, I suppose, but that might have the same problem.

Background: I recently finished a course of antibiotic and antifungal to treat a sinus infection, and I started taking a new probiotic to help me recover my gut flora. It made me feel very ill! I then discovered the link between CFS-like symptoms and d-lactic acidosis. Most of the species in my probiotic supplement were producers of d-lactate. But I also learned that these species are only likely to be a problem if they're growing in the stomach and small intestine, rather than being confined to the bowel as they should.

 

[Helen Schoenfeld]

Wow, I had been wondering about resuming probiotics after getting rid of the SIBO, that's a really good question. As a nurse, I've used tablets as suppositories with good results, but never a capsule. I'm sure that you could empty the capsule contents into some warm water and do a small volume enema, but I'd want more information before going ahead with that. Probably the microbiome experts could weigh in on that method of delivery

 

[Carl#1]

An enema is probably the way to go IMO. I have used enemas long ago so it is important to go slow and get it correct. First find out how you respond to it. Use a very small amount to see how long that you can hold it. Get the temperature correct, it would need to be a little above body temperature to take into account cooling.

Using Bifidobacteria spp. bacteria rather than the common probiotic bacteria might be helpful . They are anaerobic in nature so cannot tolerate oxygen so you would need to avoid that which should not be a problem in water. There are some other less well known bacteria which are in low numbers in most sufferers. I cannot now recall their names. They were meant to be available in some rare supplements from Japan if I remember correctly.

https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Bifidobacterium

The GAPS diet is meant to help correct colonic bacteria imbalances. Be aware that colonic bacteria are protected inside biofilms. The colon is a giant biofilm and antibiotics rarely affect bacteria inside biofilms. Therefore I believe that the idea that antibiotics harm the colon is a false idea with little merit IMO. The bacteria in the colon do tend to change as a person gets older and much of that change comes from poor stomach function IMO. That is something which people with CFS/ME/Fibro are known to suffer from. SIBO itself is the result of poor/abnormal stomach function.

It might be worth investigating yoghurt making to produce bacteria cheaply. Bacteria love to reproduce given the correct environment, temperature and food. It is whether you are able to tolerate milk protein, the lactose is likely to be eliminated by the bacteria so that should not be a problem for most people.

Adding some yoghurt to water in an enema might be helpful. I do doubt that it will affect the bacteria in the colon because of the protection provided by biofilms. The GAPS diet, a slow process, might provide a more realistic approach.

 

[TJ_Fitz]

An enema is probably the way to go IMO. I have used enemas long ago so it is important to go slow and get it correct. First find out how you respond to it. Use a very small amount to see how long that you can hold it. Get the temperature correct, it would need to be a little above body temperature to take into account cooling.

Using Bifidobacteria spp. bacteria rather than the common probiotic bacteria might be helpful . They are anaerobic in nature so cannot tolerate oxygen so you would need to avoid that which should not be a problem in water. There are some other less well known bacteria which are in low numbers in most sufferers. I cannot now recall their names. They were meant to be available in some rare supplements from Japan if I remember correctly.

The enema is a good idea. I had stool testing a few years ago, and my bugs were very low across the board, but especially low for the good kinds (bifido and lacto). I think my most common bugs were gram-negative bacteria -- not good!

I have a low-histamine probiotic from Biovy (here) that I tolerate well taking as usual (HistaminX from Seeking Health works well for me, too), and it doesn't seem to cause any reaction in my mouth or throat if I dissolve the contents of the capsule in water and swish/gargle. If it doesn't irritate these mucus membranes up here, maybe it won't bother the ones down there.

I'm also considering this product: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079QX7TLH/

 

[Carl#1]

I used to purchase a few probiotic capsules and then use them to make yoghurt which seemed to work very well. The yoghurts set very well. I did try Saccharomyces boulardii which came out best of all and set perfectly and did not generate any curds & weigh which is a very watery substance which can form on yoghurt which has fermented for too long. The Saccharomyces boulardii did not do that no matter how long they fermented and generate a perfectly set yoghurt. All you need to do is to very slowly activate freeze dried probiotics in a little cold water from the fridge and then add a little milk to them and leave them in the fridge for a few hours so that they re-activate. They can then be added to the warmed milk and put them in a joghurt maker. It works out very cheap because I was only buying the small trial packs/bottles of a small number of capsules, sometimes only 10 to 15 capsules. The yoghurt iself can then be used as the starter for future batches. After many batches maybe 15 to 20 I started from a new capsule.

Another tip is to test the temperature of the Yoghurt maker because the temperature regulation on some of them is very poor and can get too hot. Check the temperature range for the bacteria to make sure that it is okay. Ideally a temperature adjustable fermenter would be best so it has a wide range of uses.

Just make sure that you are okay with milk. I have not drank any milk in many years and do not know how I would get on with it and whether I can still digest lactose, not that there is a lot of lactose in yoghurt.

I'm also considering this product: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079QX7TLH/

That is showing as unavailable ATM. It looks basically okay but it might be worth looking for the smallest amount of capsules as possible and then ferment them. Works out less inexpensive.

 

[TJ_Fitz]

What's the benefit of adding the extra step of making yogurt first? Fecal transplants are basically an enema with a solution of saline and poo from a healthy person. I can't get that done because I don't have C. diff, but I can make a similar solution with the powder in the probiotic capsules, with no need to make yogurt first.

 

[Apo Sci]

Is it safe to use oral probiotics as a suppository?

Absolutely. Your gut needs these bacteria to function since they make butyrate which is a primary energy source for the cells of the intestinal wall. I do this every time after a course of antibiotics to re-establish gut flora. I make yogurt with A2 milk (Jersey cows) so am well versed in bacteria. It's actually quite easy. The problem with oral probiotics is that very little of them make it to the gut and it takes about a month to get it repopulated which is too slow. Gut bacteria are important for lowering cytokines (covid), making vitamin K2 and butyrate, making neurotransmitters (deficiency worsens anxiety and depression) and preventing yeast overgrowth. First you need to get your glyfosate level down by avoiding commercial grains and commercial meats. Glyfosate puts bacteria to sleep for four hours per dose so it will prevent colonization.

Fecal transplants are totally unnecessary.

Take a high quality oral probiotic capsule (20 billion organisms with some Fructo oligo sacharride), open it and put the powder in about 6 oz of warm, (116 degree F), filtered water. Stir or swish the powder and let it sit for about a minute. Take an enema bulb and draw the solution into the bulb. Use lubricant on the anus and the bulb, kneel down with your but up and inject the solution, wiggling your abdomen to work the solution up the colon. Try not to defecate for about 10 minutes.

I find that I only need to do this once per day for two days to fully and quickly repopulate the gut bacteria. I notice that the lactobacillus acidophilus turn the area acidic at first then it normalizes. The acid inhibits yeast growth. You can also use fermented vegetables if you want to get into that, however I find A2 yogurt very convenient to make in an instapot.

I won't go back to oral probiotics, although I do still eat yogurt regularly. Yogurt doesn't recolonize well but something in it supports the existing gut bacteria as a growth enhancer.

 

[TJ_Fitz]

My enema using the Seeking Health HistaminX probiotic made me feel very ill for two days after doing it. Of all the probiotics I've taken orally, this one seemed to have the least adverse effects, so I was surprised at this reaction. I'd just finished a course of strong antibiotics that were affective against both gram positive and gram negative bacteria, so I'm pretty sure I was reacting to these organisms, rather than having some sort of die-off reaction.

The reaction made me revisit the validity of this whole idea. Many studies show a correlation between high levels of lactobacillus and bifidobacterium species in the gut, and a variety of good health outcomes. I've proceeded on the assumption that the bacteria were a causative factor for those outcomes, but what if that's not the case? What if the real causative factor is having a more tolerant immune system, which both permits these varieties of bacteria to colonize AND is less prone to inflammation, which causes worse outcomes in health?

My immune system is not very tolerant. Going forward, I think it's unwise for me to artificially introduce any kind of yeast or bacteria into my body. It would be better to just let nature take its course and for whatever microbes are tolerated to come in however they will in their own time.

 

[Apo Sci]

No the bacteria are protective. That's one reason why breast fed and natural birth babies are healthier vs formula and casarean section delivered. They get mom's bacteria. If you don't have the bacteria you will be much unhealthier. Lactobacillus acidophilus is in the firmicutes genus which is supposed to promote weight gain but it actually is important because it inhibits yeast through acid production and produces neurotransmitters via the Shintamaki cycle (which is inhibited by roundup pesticide/glyfosate).

 

[TJ_Fitz]

L. acidophilus is particularly problematic for me. Taking it makes me feel like I'm down with the flu. As I recall, it produces antigens that look much like the blood type A antigen, so those with a blood type other than A or AB will react to it because they have anti-A antibodies.

I don't doubt that some bacteria are protective, but I suspect that the best mix will vary from person to person. Perhaps probiotics tailored to my genetic and epigenetic needs will be available in my lifetime, but they aren't right now, so I don't think it's wise to take more than what I get naturally from the foods I eat and air I breathe. The doses in capsules are too big, and I don't know which species will be tolerable.

 

[TJ_Fitz]

Update: I've had loose stools for quite a while now from all the antibiotics. It's not getting better, in spite of eating lots of fresh fruits and veggies (supposedly with some beneficial bacteria on them).

Because it wasn't improving on its own, I did an enema with Seeking Health HistaminX. It had no effect. Maybe the organisms are too transient to colonize on one go? Anyway, my wife and I have been on a low-starch (essentially anti-SIBO) diet for over a month now, so I decided to tried taking it orally again. None of the strains in this formula are supposed to produce histamine or D-lactate, but I still felt deep muscle aches and fatigue from taking it.

I wonder if I just react to all lactic acid bacteria for some reason, so I've been looking are alternatives. I'm getting a bottle of Youtheory spore probiotics tomorrow, which shouldn't cause SIBO, either.