Why would some antibiotics improve my fatigue by roughly 50%

[Karen17]

I've noticed over the 8 years of my ME/CFS, the few times I've taken antibiotics for about a twice-a-year UTI, I feel less fatigue. Not every time, but maybe 30% of the time. I don't feel any more fatigue when I come down with the UTI, just better taking some antibiotics. Anyone have any ideas why?

 

[SarahTee]

Interesting. Were the antibiotics the same each time?

 

[Karen17]

Interesting. Were the antibiotics the same each time?

No, they were different ones. I honestly can't remember which ones I had a good reaction to, as it took me a few years to make the connection. Some didn't help at all, and some did, just not sure which ones. I WILL take note going forward which ones help.

 

[jaminhealth]

The drug has killed some bacatera and that alone will lighten up the body. ABX drugs are a last resort thou, only taken if reallgh necessarh, some canm do dmage like the Cipro group of drugs...bad stuff

 

[beedrum]

If it was the antibiotics that made the difference, it could be that those particular antibiotics killed of certain bacteria that were responsible for you feeling tired. It's a pity you don't remember which antibiotics they were.

 

[Creekside]

I agree that it's likely microbiome changes. The microbiome is part of our body's functioning, so changes there can affect other functions of the body, and other parts of the body can affect the microbiome. I've had two instances where a change in my gut microbiome has worsened my ME symptoms. One was fixed by probiotics (pure luck that one of 14 strains in the capsule was the one that I had somehow lost). The other was fixed by food poisoning (coconut milk was a bit off), which gave my guts a good flushing out. Correcting such a problem can be as easy as taking a single probiotic capsule, or require drastic antibiotic treatments, FMTs or other such techniques, and I don't think there's any easy way to determine what is required.

You could experiment with diet, which can alter microbiome balance. Keeping a food/activity/symptoms journal is important, since human memory is too fallible for that. Maybe you'll find some food to add or avoid that will provide some improvement in your symptoms.

 

[Tammy7]

The drug has killed some bacatera and that alone will lighten up the body.

If that was the case why wouldn't the relief of fatigue be more lasting if the supposed bacteria that were causing the fatigue were no longer there?

 

[AEW]

I've noticed over the 8 years of my ME/CFS, the few times I've taken antibiotics for about a twice-a-year UTI, I feel less fatigue. Not every time, but maybe 30% of the time. I don't feel any more fatigue when I come down with the UTI, just better taking some antibiotics. Anyone have any ideas why?

The antibiotics might be helping a disorder of your gut biome. I recently was diagnosed with SIBO (Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth) and have been treated with two antibiotics, Rifamaxin and Neomycin, that targeted the bad bacteria. I was once told by a nutritionist who had cured herself of fibromyalgia that I have to heal my gut. She didn't tell me how, but I've recently read a book called the Holistic Gut Prescription by Lauren Deville NMD that helped me to figure out what was wrong with my gut and how to heal it. I diagnosed myself with the SIBO and my doctor is working with me.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

Yes, it is because the antibiotics destroys the microbiome, but the remission is not triggered in the way people are mentioning here. Bacteria need to make ATP, just like our human cells do, and these bacteria will compete for the nutrients to make that ATP. So the more bacteria in your gut, the less ATP you have for your body.

But also, we need ATP to control and fight infections. For people with ME/CFS, we have low mitochondrial ATP (or a low ATP:ADP ratio in the mitochondria) that can be made to fight infections. Taking the antibiotic removes all bacteria so that means way more ATP for the normal body function instead of controlling the microbiome. But as your microbiome normalizes and the bacteria come back, things just revert back to normal. It is not the bacteria that is our problem, it is our lack of mitochondrial ATP.

Think of it like this, wehn we haev an infection the mictochondria start pumping out a lot of ATP to fight the infection. But the lonbger this goes on the more nutreints we deplete and if we do not replace them our mitochondra cannot make anymore ATP or control oxidative stres and there you go; ME/CFS

IMHO,
In many with ME/CFS here is an inability to turn glucose into pyruvate via pyruvate dehydrogenase (A complex process which needs NAD and Thiamine) or Dihydrolipoyllysine-residue acetyltransferase (which needs lipoic acid). NAD can be made by increasing B2 and B6 and B6 is know to be lower in ME/CFS and I feel it is underutilized and under tested.

So therefor ME/CFS pateints are forced to get thier ATP mainly through Glycolysis since they are not making it in the mitochondria. And this is why many with ME/CFS have sugar cravings.
See : Biochemistry, Anaerobic Glycolysis

But I feel there are many pathways to ME/CFS. I, for example, have what I call Bipolar ME/CFS, becasue I cycled from high ATP to low ATP. Zinc helps me flatten that cycle.

Basically, we need to get the mitochondria to start making ATP again. It may be that a high glucose diet can slow recovery from ME/CFS by increasing extracellular ATP and oxidative stress if there is not enough lipoic acid and NAD.

"Make Mitochcondrial ATP Again!" - My idea for an ME/CFS hat!

 

[Creekside]

So the more bacteria in your gut, the less ATP you have for your body.

That's only if the nutrients are the limiting factor, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case for the human body.

I remain unconvinced that ME involves reduced ATP production. I haven't seen a study showing significantly reduced ATP levels in the majority of PWME.

 

[drhirsch]

I've noticed over the 8 years of my ME/CFS, the few times I've taken antibiotics for about a twice-a-year UTI, I feel less fatigue. Not every time, but maybe 30% of the time. I don't feel any more fatigue when I come down with the UTI, just better taking some antibiotics. Anyone have any ideas why?

Infections are a major contributing cause of ME/CFS, so the antibiotics killed some of them. Herbs do a better job though long term. Also, make sure you're addressing the rest of the "Toxic 5" - the heavy metals, chemicals, molds, infections, and trauma/nervous system dysfunction - to get complete resolution.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

I guess what you don’t look for you don’t find. There’s plenty of studies that show reduced ATP and GTP in chronic fatigue patients.

Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome

Chronic fatigue syndrome is a multisystem disease that causes long-term pain and disability. It is difficult to diagnose because of its protean symptoms and the lack of a diagnostic laboratory test. We report that targeted, broad-spectrum metabolomics ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The decrease in plasma purines in CFS is consistent with decreased synthesis and/or turnover (flux) of ATPand GTP and decreased reserve capacity caused in part by a generalized decrease in the ability to restore high-energy phosphate stores after exertion.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

These findings are in agreement with the clinical disease presentation of ME/CFS, with inadequate ATPgeneration by oxidative phosphorylation and excessive lactate generation upon exertion.

JCI Insight - Metabolic profiling indicates impaired pyruvate dehydrogenase function in myalgic encephalopathy/chronic fatigue syndrome

insight.jci.org

 

[Creekside]

I haven't noticed any lack of ATP in my ME. When I have a bad day, I'm too brainfogged to enjoy reading, and my ME-induced aches make walking unpleasant, so I go for a long bike ride instead, since that doesn't take brain effort and it distracts me from the leg aches. I typically ride for a few hours, including steep hills. My endurance and hill-climbing seems the same as pre-ME. So in my experience, ME does not necessarily involve reduced ATP production. Some PWME might have reduced mitochondrial function, via a number of possible pathways, and not necessarily the same pathway for all individuals. I see that as downstream of the core dysfunction of ME.

Some studies do show mitochondrial dysfunction, but others don't. I haven't seen any study claiming that all PWME have reduced mitochondrial function. Perhaps in those studies, they carefully selected subjects with specific presentations, forming a subgroup of ME.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

If you had enough ATP and GTP you wouldn’t be tired. That’s how physiology works. That is a fundamental mechanism that increases or decreases fatigue.

Low ATP and GTP can express itself in different ways based on the genetics of the receptor of the person who has the disorder.

And You might have enough ATP, but not enough GTP.

 

[ChristianBonanno]

Some studies do show mitochondrial dysfunction, but others don't. I haven't seen any study claiming that all PWME have reduced mitochondrial function. Perhaps in those studies, they carefully selected subjects with specific presentations, forming a subgroup of ME.

I didn’t say that ME/CFD is caused by mitochondrial dysfunction. I said it was caused by low ATP and GTP. You don’t need mitochondrial function to have low ATP and GTP.