Acupuncture....What to believe

Kim812

Member
I am posting again about Acupuncture...(sorry). I recently had my third treatment. I decided to go back after my last treatment which caused a ten day crash. I wanted to talk with her face to face and find out what the he** happened. So she said her treatment was obviously too aggressive in thinking I had more healing energy than I really do.
I don't look sick as most of us don't but I am also able to walk daily and am in great shape so I apparently fooled her?

Anyway I let her do a mild treatment and she also did cupping on my neck and upper back. I left feeling a little tired but really tired the following day though not crashed.
My question actually is when do you say "enough"? This isn't helping or making me feel even one percent better. It hasn't helped my sleep...nerve pain or my worse symptom fatigue.

We already have invested 400.00 bucks into this and it hasn't done a thing. She keeps saying that I have been sick so long (13 years) it's gonna take a while but ....
The Acupuncturist works at Duke which I know is a great hospital so I assume she knows what she is doing.

I have already spent thousands and thousands of dollars on treatments...herbs...doctors...medications....when is enough... I have another treatment scheduled for next week which I will keep but after that one I just am not sure. It's 90.00 each session which insurance doesn't cover.
I would have no problem paying this if I knew it would help. Any thoughts?
 

Remy

Administrator
I am posting again about Acupuncture...(sorry). I recently had my third treatment. I decided to go back after my last treatment which caused a ten day crash. I wanted to talk with her face to face and find out what the he** happened. So she said her treatment was obviously too aggressive in thinking I had more healing energy than I really do.
I don't look sick as most of us don't but I am also able to walk daily and am in great shape so I apparently fooled her?

Anyway I let her do a mild treatment and she also did cupping on my neck and upper back. I left feeling a little tired but really tired the following day though not crashed.
My question actually is when do you say "enough"? This isn't helping or making me feel even one percent better. It hasn't helped my sleep...nerve pain or my worse symptom fatigue.

We already have invested 400.00 bucks into this and it hasn't done a thing. She keeps saying that I have been sick so long (13 years) it's gonna take a while but ....
The Acupuncturist works at Duke which I know is a great hospital so I assume she knows what she is doing.

I have already spent thousands and thousands of dollars on treatments...herbs...doctors...medications....when is enough... I have another treatment scheduled for next week which I will keep but after that one I just am not sure. It's 90.00 each session which insurance doesn't cover.
I would have no problem paying this if I knew it would help. Any thoughts?
The eternal dilemma...when to throw in the towel.

I wonder if you have a community acupuncture center where you live? Typically treatments are more like $25, no frills.

There really is a lot of data showing acupuncture is safe and effective for many conditions so I'd probably give it some time, if it was me. But I might find another practitioner if you think you've lost confidence in this one. Good luck!
 

Kim812

Member
Yup..that's exactly it...when to throw in the towel. I truly like this one as she is very caring and gets my symptoms as strange as some of them are. The problem is she is extremely confident she can help me which makes me want to keep at it.
I just don't want to be 1,000 into this and feel no different. If I quit this one I don't think I would look for another. Thanks !
 

Rob Rainford

Active Member
I tried acupuncture and cupping. The Chinese guy who owns the place did a thorough job but it was only a short term relief because the CFS would kick in after a day. I would like to think Chinese medicine works (My wife swears by it) but the the modern world is different from a few hundred years ago. New age, new pollution etc....
 

Not dead yet!

Well-Known Member
I am posting again about Acupuncture...(sorry). I recently had my third treatment. I decided to go back after my last treatment which caused a ten day crash. I wanted to talk with her face to face and find out what the he** happened. So she said her treatment was obviously too aggressive in thinking I had more healing energy than I really do.
I don't look sick as most of us don't but I am also able to walk daily and am in great shape so I apparently fooled her?

Anyway I let her do a mild treatment and she also did cupping on my neck and upper back. I left feeling a little tired but really tired the following day though not crashed.
My question actually is when do you say "enough"? This isn't helping or making me feel even one percent better. It hasn't helped my sleep...nerve pain or my worse symptom fatigue.

We already have invested 400.00 bucks into this and it hasn't done a thing. She keeps saying that I have been sick so long (13 years) it's gonna take a while but ....
The Acupuncturist works at Duke which I know is a great hospital so I assume she knows what she is doing.

I have already spent thousands and thousands of dollars on treatments...herbs...doctors...medications....when is enough... I have another treatment scheduled for next week which I will keep but after that one I just am not sure. It's 90.00 each session which insurance doesn't cover.
I would have no problem paying this if I knew it would help. Any thoughts?
I had the privilege to be treated by a somewhat famous Western accupuncturist who has traveled to the East to learn and is the equivalent of the chairman of the board of accupuncturists in his state. He also said exactly what you heard there about "too aggressive." He owns a set of ancient long needles and has had some amazing cures, but by the time I saw him, he had decided such things were too aggressive. I don't know how I feel about that. One of his cures was my husband whose gallbladder would have been removed if he hadn't helped him. In about two treatments, the gb issue was gone and never came back other than an occasional mild ache.

For me, he was being cautious, but nothing he did helped me. Except for the tea. I still drink a simplified form of it.

Modern "American Style" Accupuncture is a pale shadow of its former self. Due to the FDA being skeptical about herbs, most mainstream Accupuncturists will not design a unique tea just for you, nor do they maintain a fresh supply of the unusual ingredients you would need to make it for you. The blood building or other tea effects are ignored by science and even frowned upon.

Does you Accu make you a unique tea just for you? If not, find one that does, if you're going to try this again. I think the tea does more for me than the needles. But also I think that caution is the new watchword for Accu's.

Caution was always a watchword, though. The theory is that they are attempting to achieve balance. Where there is wet, they attempt to dry, if it is hot, they will attempt to cool... etc. But the balance is also a cycle, too much yin will turn to yang and vice versa. "Too aggressive" could mean that while the hot was being cooled, it also led to too much moisture and resulted in cold/wet. The practitioner needs to adjust for that. And some of it is trial and error while your body enters into a conversation with the doctor.

However, at over $100 a pop, not many will invest in it enough to let that conversation bear fruit. That's part of the modern conversion of Accupuncture from an ancient Chinese healing method to a "healthcare option." I really hope Accupuncture survives. Because our modern method of using it is shortsighted.
 

Barliman

New Member
Placebo works. Until it doesn't.
A placebo with a 4,000 year lineage of continuous use?
There are problems with TCM- they see things in a different model to ours, and they also have not really figured out just how bad our diet is and how toxic our environment is.

IT has taken me some time to come to grips with it-- but when I had a brief consult with a TCM docrot who took my pulse, looked at my tongue and my ankles, then told me what I already knew (because I had received the blood test results 2 weeks before)- then I sat up and paid attention. Since then i have got me an electroacupuncture tool and a couple of books- and I am off like a rocket.
 

Eset Isadore

Active Member
I had the privilege to be treated by a somewhat famous Western accupuncturist who has traveled to the East to learn and is the equivalent of the chairman of the board of accupuncturists in his state. He also said exactly what you heard there about "too aggressive." He owns a set of ancient long needles and has had some amazing cures, but by the time I saw him, he had decided such things were too aggressive. I don't know how I feel about that. One of his cures was my husband whose gallbladder would have been removed if he hadn't helped him. In about two treatments, the gb issue was gone and never came back other than an occasional mild ache.

For me, he was being cautious, but nothing he did helped me. Except for the tea. I still drink a simplified form of it.

Modern "American Style" Accupuncture is a pale shadow of its former self. Due to the FDA being skeptical about herbs, most mainstream Accupuncturists will not design a unique tea just for you, nor do they maintain a fresh supply of the unusual ingredients you would need to make it for you. The blood building or other tea effects are ignored by science and even frowned upon.

Does you Accu make you a unique tea just for you? If not, find one that does, if you're going to try this again. I think the tea does more for me than the needles. But also I think that caution is the new watchword for Accu's.

Caution was always a watchword, though. The theory is that they are attempting to achieve balance. Where there is wet, they attempt to dry, if it is hot, they will attempt to cool... etc. But the balance is also a cycle, too much yin will turn to yang and vice versa. "Too aggressive" could mean that while the hot was being cooled, it also led to too much moisture and resulted in cold/wet. The practitioner needs to adjust for that. And some of it is trial and error while your body enters into a conversation with the doctor.

However, at over $100 a pop, not many will invest in it enough to let that conversation bear fruit. That's part of the modern conversion of Accupuncture from an ancient Chinese healing method to a "healthcare option." I really hope Accupuncture survives. Because our modern method of using it is shortsighted.
Also, please ask many questions about the sourcing of your Chinese Medical Doctor’s herbs. Customization of raw formulas is the key. However, there are many, many problems with contaminants that the vast majority of even well-intentioned clinicians do not understand. Find out what formulary they use to fill herbal prescriptions. And then look behind any smoke screens with great care. Herbs are incredibly powerful when prescribed well - and when sourced with tremendous care. Think the care many of us give to our food’s cultivation and sourcing and multiply it!
 

Not dead yet!

Well-Known Member
Also, please ask many questions about the sourcing of your Chinese Medical Doctor’s herbs. Customization of raw formulas is the key. However, there are many, many problems with contaminants that the vast majority of even well-intentioned clinicians do not understand. Find out what formulary they use to fill herbal prescriptions. And then look behind any smoke screens with great care. Herbs are incredibly powerful when prescribed well - and when sourced with tremendous care. Think the care many of us give to our food’s cultivation and sourcing and multiply it!
I apologize in advance if you did not mean to set off this rant. It's just that so many of us mouth the empty mantras that destroy reason. Phrases like "science based" and "evidence based" ignore the fact that many times medicine doesn't have much evidence behind it either. "Smoke screens" are used to make traditional medicine look suspicious, but it's ok when drug companies do it because it's a "trade secret." "Well intentioned" is a veiled barb of a phrase, etc.

I once was a fan of Penn and Teller, but then they went on a skeptical kick and I lost all respect for them. I did watch their show. They pushed a fake examination angle with many of the same phrases you just used. And the double standard of "traditional things" must be more honest and work harder to prove themselves than "modern things." It was sickening to watch them twist logic.

We try so hard to place "limits" on "unproven" things but we let drug companies poison us with unnecessary drugs, endlessly lowered cholesterol goals, weight goals, and blood pressure goals. But when something works and we don't know why, we first try to de-legitimize it, then ignore it. Ahem, look at the science of drinking a small amount of alcohol. Not alcoholics but non alcoholics who drink "in moderation." Who's shouting "drink a couple of drinks a week for your health!" from the rooftops? No, I haven't heard that either, but it's one of the paradoxes of health.

The Acupuncturist I saw... His treatment room was lined with jars containing mysterious things. He bought every item himself, no doubt from a catalog for Acupuncturists. You may as well ask for the location of the source of the panax ginseng in those tea colored liquid bottles you find in Asian stores. And demanding a traceable source can be another form of harassment toward traditional medicine.

It works. When it doesn't, I won't be the first one asking why. Every elderly Asian American man will ask along with me. And then questions about source and quality will be asked. You make a mistake if you assume that people don't know or care about their traditions.

Even "the West" failed to stamp out herbalism because it was associated with witchcraft. We only silenced it, not destroyed it. All-heal is as much a valid herb today as it was a thousand years ago. Only now, we approach it with science.

Search pubmed for Prunella vulgaris (all heal) and switch to "Best Match" - we are currently intensively investigating that plant. But the point is to develop drugs from what we learn.

How about if I ask every drug company to tell me the origin and manufacturing practices of their drugs?

Have you ever tried to do that regarding gluten free fillers/excipients? If you have, then you realize how futile it is most of the time.

Don't expect traditional medicine to be more honest and upright than drug companies. Although in most cases, they are more transparent.

Think the care many of us give to our food’s cultivation and sourcing
Oh? Like Monsanto and the Roundup Ready corn? I am a participant in that saga. I was there asking them questions just before it was legalized, while there was stay after stay because they didn't want to label it or any label law for it.

Their rep slammed the phone down on me when I asked (too) "many questions" while attempting to work on my final project for college. My professor had a public shouting argument with another professor from a neighboring science department regarding my project on GMO corn. She was basically tarred and feathered a Luddite and moved to a different university.

Despite all this, I don't think GMO is always bad. Lying about it, a lack of transparency, that's bad. Only partly because it forces people to make uninformed choices. But because they're squandering the stellar gift of GMOs on making food more toxic rather than less. They could be making multivitamin foods, but they'd rather force poison on us.

Do not suffer a poisoner to live. That's from the Bible. I don't advocate violence, but they sure do. Nothing is more violent than poisoning someone's food. It's called murder. If I sprayed Roundup on your food ad served it to you, I'd go to jail either for attempted or actual murder. Prove me wrong.

We are in a Dark Age. The dark age caused by the megacorps. First we had mega churches, now we have megacorps. Same thing different era. A coterie has control and can force the majority. They are immune for now. We have to stop helping them maintain control. We have to start speaking the truth.
 
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zzz

Active Member
I've had fantastic success with acupuncture's treating and even curing many different conditions; I have been fortunate to have found some really good acupuncturists over the years. But never have I had any treatments that made so much as a temporary dent in my ME/CFS. If there are acupuncture treatments that are good for this condition, they are virtually unknown in the West (despite what some practitioners may claim).
 

Eset Isadore

Active Member
I apologize in advance if you did not mean to set off this rant. It's just that so many of us mouth the empty mantras that destroy reason. Phrases like "science based" and "evidence based" ignore the fact that many times medicine doesn't have much evidence behind it either. "Smoke screens" are used to make traditional medicine look suspicious, but it's ok when drug companies do it because it's a "trade secret." "Well intentioned" is a veiled barb of a phrase, etc.

I once was a fan of Penn and Teller, but then they went on a skeptical kick and I lost all respect for them. I did watch their show. They pushed a fake examination angle with many of the same phrases you just used. And the double standard of "traditional things" must be more honest and work harder to prove themselves than "modern things." It was sickening to watch them twist logic.

We try so hard to place "limits" on "unproven" things but we let drug companies poison us with unnecessary drugs, endlessly lowered cholesterol goals, weight goals, and blood pressure goals. But when something works and we don't know why, we first try to de-legitimize it, then ignore it. Ahem, look at the science of drinking a small amount of alcohol. Not alcoholics but non alcoholics who drink "in moderation." Who's shouting "drink a couple of drinks a week for your health!" from the rooftops? No, I haven't heard that either, but it's one of the paradoxes of health.

The Acupuncturist I saw... His treatment room was lined with jars containing mysterious things. He bought every item himself, no doubt from a catalog for Acupuncturists. You may as well ask for the location of the source of the panax ginseng in those tea colored liquid bottles you find in Asian stores. And demanding a traceable source can be another form of harassment toward traditional medicine.

It works. When it doesn't, I won't be the first one asking why. Every elderly Asian American man will ask along with me. And then questions about source and quality will be asked. You make a mistake if you assume that people don't know or care about their traditions.

Even "the West" failed to stamp out herbalism because it was associated with witchcraft. We only silenced it, not destroyed it. All-heal is as much a valid herb today as it was a thousand years ago. Only now, we approach it with science.

Search pubmed for Prunella vulgaris (all heal) and switch to "Best Match" - we are currently intensively investigating that plant. But the point is to develop drugs from what we learn.

How about if I ask every drug company to tell me the origin and manufacturing practices of their drugs?

Have you ever tried to do that regarding gluten free fillers/excipients? If you have, then you realize how futile it is most of the time.

Don't expect traditional medicine to be more honest and upright than drug companies. Although in most cases, they are more transparent.

Oh? Like Monsanto and the Roundup Ready corn? I am a participant in that saga. I was there asking them questions just before it was legalized, while there was stay after stay because they didn't want to label it or any label law for it.

Their rep slammed the phone down on me when I asked (too) "many questions" while attempting to work on my final project for college. My professor had a public shouting argument with another professor from a neighboring science department regarding my project on GMO corn. She was basically tarred and feathered a Luddite and moved to a different university.

Despite all this, I don't think GMO is always bad. Lying about it, a lack of transparency, that's bad. Only partly because it forces people to make uninformed choices. But because they're squandering the stellar gift of GMOs on making food more toxic rather than less. They could be making multivitamin foods, but they'd rather force poison on us.

Do not suffer a poisoner to live. That's from the Bible. I don't advocate violence, but they sure do. Nothing is more violent than poisoning someone's food. It's called murder. If I sprayed Roundup on your food ad served it to you, I'd go to jail either for attempted or actual murder. Prove me wrong.

We are in a Dark Age. The dark age caused by the megacorps. First we had mega churches, now we have megacorps. Same thing different era. A coterie has control and can force the majority. They are immune for now. We have to stop helping them maintain control. We have to start speaking the truth.
I have neither energy nor capacity to respond, and certainly have not the smallest bit of desire to engage in argument - especially since, from what my eyes can handle skimming, we’re on the same team, and far more than you may know.

I will say only that I speak from depth of knowledge and experience. We all need to evolve, together. Asking wise questions regarding how we treat the earth and how we treat our bodies, and doing our best to steward both and to help each other to do so as well...that’s how we accomplish that.

That’s true and necessary with regard to every kind of medicine on the planet.

There are rare East Asian herbal pharmacies, such as one in Chicago that serves the patients of clinicians across the USA, that will do their utmost to seek and share answers regarding sourcing. They do the research and press to raise the bar on quality standards. No individual clinician can.
 
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Eset Isadore

Active Member
I wonder if they do mail order? I’d like to support such a place.
They do, Remy. The order itself has to be placed by a trained herbologist, of course (just as a drug from a pharmacy would require the prescription of a physician). But then they can mail direct to the patient.
 

Eset Isadore

Active Member
I forgot to note that I think the closest possible step to engaging around questions of sourcing that is even possible when we are in position, as patients, to need pharmaceutical medications is to see if we can get our doctors to prescribe through a compunding pharmacy.

Many insurance companies, for those of us lucky enough to have insurance, will cover custom-compounding of medications.

While that doesn’t begin to address the structural or even philosophical limitations inherent within Big Pharma, as it were, it does allow for a more personable experience, opportunities to ask questions and get real answers, and “cleanly compounded” medications without potentially problematic “inactive ingredients”.

Imperfect, yet something! And something real.
 

Not dead yet!

Well-Known Member
I forgot to note that I think the closest possible step to engaging around questions of sourcing that is even possible when we are in position, as patients, to need pharmaceutical medications is to see if we can get our doctors to prescribe through a compounding pharmacy.

Many insurance companies, for those of us lucky enough to have insurance, will cover custom-compounding of medications.

While that doesn’t begin to address the structural or even philosophical limitations inherent within Big Pharma, as it were, it does allow for a more personable experience, opportunities to ask questions and get real answers, and “cleanly compounded” medications without potentially problematic “inactive ingredients”.

Imperfect, yet something! And something real.

I agree and I apologize if my tone indicated too much sarcasm. It wasn't directed at you, but at the shadow forces that seem to infect us with meme like phrases that destroy reason. It was probably misdirected and badly timed.

My compounding pharmacy will also seek online for reputable sources of medications if I end up paying out of pocket for something. Alternative pharmacies are extremely helpful to the mysteriously ill.
 

Remy

Administrator
They do, Remy. The order itself has to be placed by a trained herbologist, of course (just as a drug from a pharmacy would require the prescription of a physician). But then they can mail direct to the patient.
Are you comfortable sharing the name on this thread? Or would you send it to me by PM?
 

Eset Isadore

Active Member
Are you comfortable sharing the name on this thread? Or would you send it to me by PM?
Hi Remy. Is it appropriate for us to name businesses? I don’t remember if there are rules around that...and I don’t want to inadvertently step on toes.

In any event, it’s a registered Benefit Corporation. I know I can say that much! Can you tell me how to PM you and I’ll happily do that then?
 

Remy

Administrator
Hi Remy. Is it appropriate for us to name businesses? I don’t remember if there are rules around that...and I don’t want to inadvertently step on toes.

In any event, it’s a registered Benefit Corporation. I know I can say that much! Can you tell me how to PM you and I’ll happily do that then?
It is allowed for known members to name a business they recommend. It’s not allowed for random people to spam the forum. :)

I’ll send you a PM so you can reply.
 

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