Centrophenoxine to boost acetylcholine?

[Remy]

Has anyone tried centrophenoxine to boost acetylcholine?

It seems to be a form of DMAE that can cross the brain barrier.

From Braintropic:

Centrophenoxine offers a wide range of benefits for both brain and body:

• Better Memory – Centrophenoxine is best known for its considerable abilities as a memory booster. Its primary action is providing additional choline and enabling the production of acetylcholine, the neurotransmitter that is most closely tied to cognitive function in general and memory in particular.

• Enhanced Fluid Intelligence – Centrophenoxine can enhance fluid intelligence, or the ability to solve problems without relying on acquired knowledge.

• Improved Overall Brain Function – Centrophenoxine is considered a neuro energizer because it stimulates glucose uptake, oxygen consumption, and carbon dioxide production. The additional oxygen and glucose add to its nootropic effects, making learning easier, thought clearer, and all of the brain’s functions more efficient.

• Increased Energy – Many users find that centrophenoxine has a mild stimulant effect. While it energizes without creating the jittery feelings that amphetamines or other stimulants cause, its energy boost is enough to disrupt regular sleep patterns if taken late in the day.
• Anti-aging – Research shows that centrophenoxine is an aggressive free radical scavenger and powerful antioxidant that protects the brain from age-related deterioration, flushes out toxins, and repairs damaged cells.
• Mood and Motivation – Users report that centrophenoxine has a strong motivating and mood-improving effect, acting as a mild but noticeable anti-depressant.

I tried this after galantamine and huperzine A. It seems to be more strongly cholinergic to me and I'm curious if anyone else has noticed this effect? @Lostfalco? @Hip?

 

[Hip]

Has anyone tried centrophenoxine to boost acetylcholine?

I used to take centrophenoxine (Lucidril) years ago, before I developed ME/CFS, as a smart drug (nootropic). For me it had similar effects to piracetam, which is another nootropic that works on the acetylcholine system.

I have not really tried centrophenoxine that much since getting ME/CFS (I did try it in the early years of my ME/CFS, but that was some time ago, and I don't remember what it's effects were on my brain fog).

Piracetam 800 mg is currently my nootropic of choice for reducing brain fog, and it works quite well for me. But I only take it when I really need to concentrate hard on something, because unfortunately I find piracetam creates an undesirable emotional flatness side effect. Other ME/CFS patients have also reported this same emotional flatness side effect of piracetam. Emotional flatness is of course on of the ME/CFS symptoms listed in the CCC, and I suffer from this symptom anyway, so I don't really want anything which exacerbates it.


So perhaps I should try centrophenoxine again, because if it works as well as piracetam, but does not have the piracetam emotional flatness side effects, centrophenoxine would be a useful treatment for brain fog.

Thanks for starting this thread!

 

[Remy]

Piracetam 800 mg is currently my nootropic of choice for reducing brain fog

You know, I have not tried a single member of the racetam class which is almost unbelievable considering how much I love to buy supplements.

Dave Asprey also speaks highly of aniracetam but I have no idea what the differences are or why one would choose one over another. A new thread!

 

[Hip]

You know, I have not tried a single member of the racetam class which is almost unbelievable considering how much I love to buy supplements.

Not like you, Remy!

I've tried a few racetams.

Piracetam 800 mg is the original drug of the racetam class, and still one of the best. Gives a great cognitive boost, but several ME/CFS patients say it does tend to flatten emotions a bit.

Aniracetam 800 mg is good, and I find it boosts emotions and mood (and is known for doing so), but it's effects tend to be shorter lived than piracetam (effects last for 2 or 3 hours, rather than the 8 hours that piracetam lasts for), so you need to dose aniracetam 3 times a day or more. However, because aniracetam has positive effects on the emotions as well as on cognition, aniracetam may be a better choice than piracetam for ME/CFS patients who have blunted emotions, as aniracetam can help remedy these. Aniracetam is fat soluble, so it is best taken with food (or with milk, or fish oil) for good absorption.


Pramiracetam I have not tried, but it is well known to blunt the emotions, so I am not touching this one, given that I already have flat emotions.

Oxiracetam I have not tried. It has stimulant-like effects, and I don't really like stimulants that much. The thing about the racetams is that in general they increase intelligence and cognition without any stimulant effects, so you can feel calm and relaxed, yet mentally sharp and in command.

Phenylpiracetam 50 to 100 mg sublingual I tried, and it is similar to piracetam. Phenylpiracetam has the disadvantage that you get a tolerance build-up after some days usage, so you can only really use it for short periods. I found phenylpiracetam flattened emotions less than piracetam does. Phenylpiracetam has some stimulant effects.

Sunifiram I have briefly tried, in doses of 15 mg sublingual, but need to test it further. It has a very short half life of 30-45 minutes, and so its effects wear off after just an hour, which is a bit of a disadvantage.

Noopept is a racetam-like drug which is usually included with the racetams. I found it had good cognition boosting effects, and also mood-boosting antidepressant effects, when taking 50 mg daily intranasal. BUT, when you stop taking noopept after using it daily for a few weeks, there is a big increase in depression, which I found takes weeks to recover from. For this reason, I rarely use noopept, except for just the odd single day. Noopept may treat urinary frequency (an issue in ME/CFS), as it is a peptide analog of the active fragment of vasopressin.

Coluracetam 10 to 20 mg intranasal, even if I take it in the morning, causes me to get pretty disturbed, restless sleep with disturbed dreams that are not pleasant. So that was a show-stopper for me.



All in all, I think piracetam and aniracetam (original first generation racetams) are still the best choices.

People often take choline bitartrate and vitamin B5 along with their racetams, as these help supply acetylcholine, and boost the effect of the racetams. Some racetams, namely noopept and pramiracetam, may give headache side effects if you don't take choline bitartrate with them.

Some people (like me) find racetams have strong effects in boosting cognition; but for other people, they don't work at all.


So if I need to muster up some extra brain powder in order to tackle something complex, I will typically take:

Cognition Boosting Protocol:
Piracetam (or aniracetam) 800 to 1600 mg
Choline bitartrate 500 mg
Vitamin B5 500 mg

 

[Remy]

Strangely, my HRV has tanked on the centrophenoxine which seems paradoxical.

The blurry vision was a little better yesterday but the muscle pain in my shoulders and neck persists. And I'm still clenching my jaw!

The weather has been super funky too though so I'm not sure if I'll give it a few more days or not. We have gone from 20F to 70 and now headed back to 35 in the same span...

 

[Paw]

Intranasal Noopept?? That stuff is like cat pee! All the racetams (and cholinergics for that matter) are tricky for me. Like stimulants, they can easily trigger flu-like states. Occasional small doses for temporary boosts aren't too bad.

 

[Hip]

Intranasal Noopept?? That stuff is like cat pee!

My noopept powder is somewhat bitter, but nothing more than that. You certainly don't taste anything when you snort the powder into the nose, which is one advantage over taking it sublingually.

The only thing I learnt from experience not to snort into the nose is any acidic supplement. If you do that, you'll be running to the bathroom in agony, trying to wash the powder out of your nose! I've been there!