Maybe you can't "antioxidant" your way out of chronic oxidative stress?

Remy

Administrator
Many of us (myself included!) take a lot of antioxidants trying to reverse the damage caused by chronic oxidative stress. But this article (and Naviaux's work) suggests that it isn't actually possible to take enough antioxidants to make any real difference in the redox balance.

The alternative suggestion is hormesis. Hormesis is when you take low doses or amounts of things that in high doses would likely kill you. It then stimulates repair and recovery processes to occur. Methylene blue is an example recently discussed on the forums of a hormetic substance. Exercise and sauna are others.

Here's an article from Mark's Daily Apple on hormesis.

Here's an extract from the relevant article with full text at the link:

In the past it was thought that the administration of several antioxidants may reduce the damage but this is a passive therapy accompanied by a scarce bioavailability or inability to reach the appropriate target or to stimulate the innate antioxidant response (Bocci and Valacchi, 2013). Moreover cytokines such as IL-1, IL-6, IFN gamma, TNF-alpha, via their binding to membrane cell receptors, further trig- ger ROS production and this situation has been well documented in ischemia and reperfusion injury, atherosclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, pulmonary and neurodegenerative diseases and type II-diabetes responsible of the death of many millions people.

HOW A CHRONIC OXIDATIVE STRESS CAN BE CORRECTED?

It is now well established that one theory that related the develop- ment of pathologies (mainly during aging) concerns the progres- sive cellular loss of functions. One burning question regards the variability (heterogeneity) of humans to develop diseases, and the answer can be found in the individual different genetic interac- tion, environments and life events that shape our body to certain physiological responses.
Nowadays, the hormesis concept has been revaluated and stress-induced hormesis may be one effective way to prevent cell damage and promoting healthy aging.

Basically, the term horme- sis describes a process that results in ameliorating and improve cellular stress resistance, survival, and longevity in response to sub-lethal levels of stress. It has been proposed that hormesis can promote healthy aging.

Overall a similar concept described for the activation of Heat shock Proteins (HSPs) which are as part of the cell’s internal repair mechanism. Indeed HSPs are also called “stress-proteins” and respond to several stress not only related to temperature variation. heat, cold, and oxygen deprivation by activating several cascade pathways.

Several hormetic stressors have been describe, including, but not limited to moderate exercise, calorie restriction, pro-oxidant exposure.
 

Who Me?

Well-Known Member
I think there are a lot of things that work better for us at a subclinical dose

I'm taking .5 mgs Atarax (normal is 10-25 +) and am having good luck with histamine issues and energy.
 

Little Mouse

New Member
Here's one thing to keep in mind: before they had the AIDS cocktail, AIDS patients wasted all their time and money on supps, herbs, alternative treatments, mind-bondy etc. They all died. Once good drugs came along, the disease became something to be managed. It's ok to try things, but.......if I had it do do all over again, I would skip all the vitamin, herb, cleanses, meditation (etc)l and alternative treatments and just gone to Hawaii or bought a better car. Would have saved myself time, money and alot of tears.
 

Who Me?

Well-Known Member
And for me not doing anything is letting the disease win. And I refuse to be a victim.

For every 20 things I try one helps. Maybe it's a small thing but I'll take that. I shudder to think where I'd be without the small little victories. Way worse than I am now and even with the small gains, there are new problems I face.

I have zero faith that anything will be found in my lifetime. I'm sure as hell am not going to sit around and wait for someone to figure it out. It's not about a cure for me. It's about not getting worse.
 

Veet

Well-Known Member
Methylene blue is an example recently discussed on the forums of a hormetic substance
I've just ordered some food grade crystals. Looking forward to trying this.
And for me not doing anything is letting the disease win. And I refuse to be a victim.
Absolutely. Vitamins, minerals, amino acids, EFAs have made profound impact on my symptoms and quality of life. After 2-3 years of detox, I now no longer need many of those, and much less of the ones I continue using. I've become relatively symptom-free, except for the debilitating lack of energy. And the ongoing discomfort, mostly inside my head, that I attribute to oxidative stress.
 

Remy

Administrator
Here's one thing to keep in mind: before they had the AIDS cocktail, AIDS patients wasted all their time and money on supps, herbs, alternative treatments, mind-bondy etc. They all died. Once good drugs came along, the disease became something to be managed. It's ok to try things, but.......if I had it do do all over again, I would skip all the vitamin, herb, cleanses, meditation (etc)l and alternative treatments and just gone to Hawaii or bought a better car. Would have saved myself time, money and alot of tears.
Well, to be fair, meditation, at least, is free! ;)

Welcome to the forums, @Little Mouse . Here's to hoping for some "good" drugs soon.
 

Remy

Administrator
I think there are a lot of things that work better for us at a subclinical dose
Subclinical isn't quite the same thing as a hormetic response...subclinical just means lower than the typical dose.

Hormetic means something that causes minor damage...so the body kicks in the repair mechanisms and things end up better overall than they were before.
 

Who Me?

Well-Known Member
Subclinical isn't quite the same thing as a hormetic response...subclinical just means lower than the typical dose.

Hormetic means something that causes minor damage...so the body kicks in the repair mechanisms and things end up better overall than they were before.
as long as it works.

@Veet
I've just ordered some food grade crystals. Looking forward to trying this.
Let me know. I take dextromethorphan which is contraindicated. But if you have luck I can stop it. I'd get the tincture I saw posted.
 
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Cort

Founder of Health Rising and Phoenix Rising
Staff member
I am leery about the ability of antioxidants to do much as well. I remember some studies showing that sometimes they can do harm actually - that was a mind-blower. I wonder if its just better to load up on antioxidant rich foods?
 

Remy

Administrator
Seems like backing away from antioxidants is the theme du jour...

The lay press and thousands of nutritional products warn of oxygen radicals or oxidative stress and suggest taking so-called antioxidants to prevent or cure disease. Professor Pietro Ghezzi at the Brighton and Sussex Medical School and Professor Harald Schmidt at the University of Maastricht have analyzed the evidence behind this.

The result is a clear warning: do not take these supplements unless a clear deficiency is diagnosed by a healthcare professional.

Humans depend on oxygen to produce energy, but oxygen also has the potential to generate so-called oxygen radicals, which may cause oxidative stress and disease. Markers of oxidative stress have been correlated with cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, and other conditions. Because of these associations, antioxidant supplements are taken by millions of people; however, none of the antioxidants tested in randomized clinical trials have demonstrated any benefit. On the contrary, some of them may cause harm.
This is because oxygen radicals not only trigger disease but also perform many important functions in the body, such as for immune defense and hormone synthesis. Thus anti-oxidants will interfere with both healthy and disease-triggering oxygen molecules.

"Oxidative stress could be important in some conditions and only in a small proportion of patients," said Prof. Ghezzi. "It can be targeted in a totally different manner, with drugs targeted only at those sources of oxygen molecules that are triggers of disease and leave the healthy ones alone," added Prof. Schmidt. The review is published the British Journal of Pharmacology.
Story Source:
The above post is reprinted from materials provided by Wiley. Note: Materials may be edited for content and length.
Journal Reference:
  1. Pietro Ghezzi, Vincent Jaquet, Fabrizio Marcucci, Harald H.H.W. Schmidt. The oxidative stress theory of disease: levels of evidence and epistemological aspects. British Journal of Pharmacology, 2016; DOI: 10.1111/bph.13544
 

Hip

Well-Known Member
The alternative suggestion is hormesis. Hormesis is when you take low doses or amounts of things that in high doses would likely kill you. It then stimulates repair and recovery processes to occur.
I wonder if ozone therapy, by providing a transient burst of oxidation in the body, can be considered an example of hormesis?

I think that is the general idea proposed by Velio Bocci in his book: OZONE. A New Medical Drug (see chapter 4). I quoted some of chapter 4 at the bottom of this post.
 

Remy

Administrator
I wonder if ozone therapy, by providing a transient burst of oxidation in the body, can be considered an example of hormesis?

I think that is the general idea proposed by Velio Bocci in his book: OZONE. A New Medical Drug (see chapter 4). I quoted some of chapter 4 at the bottom of this post.
Yes, 100% for sure.

Funny you bring this up because I actually just made an appt with a local doctor that does both ozone and NAD IV treatments. So I'm definitely heading down this path this fall.

The hormetic dose response appears to be useful for describing the dual pharmacological response elicited by ozone, basically acting as a pro-drug.

The most common form of the hormetic dose response curve, depicting low dose stimulatory and high dose inhibitory and toxic responses is the ß- or inverted U-shaped curve shown in Figure Figure3,3, panel a. However, the graphic illustration of the hormetic dose-response relationship between ozone and blood needs an explanation because it slightly differs from graphs presented on the effect of other stressors (Figure (Figure3,3, panel b) [26,75-78].

It has been found that an ozone dose of only 10 µ;g/ml (0.21 μmol/ml) per ml of blood is fully neutralized by both uric acid and Aa, especially when the TAS of individual blood is between 1.5-1.9 mM [79]. It follows that the minimal reaction, if any, with PUFA will not generate enough messengers as ROS and LOP to trigger biological effects.

In this case the small ozone dose is totally consumed by available free antioxidants and the ozonated blood will not display therapeutic activity.

Gaseous ozone doses between 20 and 80 µ;g/ml (0.42-1.68 μmol/ml) per ml of blood are well calibrated against blood's TAS and both biological and therapeutic effects will ensue.

A recent metabonomic study has shown that the blood antioxidant capacity is almost exhausted when the ozone dose has been raised to 160 µ;g/ml per ml of blood [74].

In simple words, too little ozone, unable to modify the homeostatic equilibrium, is unable to elicit the hormetic response.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3125221/
 

Hip

Well-Known Member
@Remy
You might want to look at my ozone transdermal application method, which seemed to work for me. Full details in my post. The normal approach to transdermal ozone application is using a full body bag which you fill with ozone gas, and slowly let the gas absorb through your skin, but obviously this is a cumbersome method.

So what I did was buy one of those cheap ozone generators you get on eBay for around £20 or so (these supply around 400 to 600 mg of ozone per hour), and then I bubbled the ozone gas through 30 ml of water for 10 minutes, to make ozonated water.

You then just apply this 30 ml of ozonated water to your skin from head to toe. So it's a very easy technique to use.


I noticed that this transdermal ozonated water technique cleared out my chronically inflamed and slightly congested nose and sinus cavities (which for me causes much of the inflammatory feeling I get in my head). So my head felt clearer after this ozone treatment.
 

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