proteolytic enzymes - how do they work?

[ankaa]

Wobenzyme and vascuzyme have both been amazingly helpful (along w probiotics)... better than any pain treatment a doctor has prescribed! I feel way less stiff & sore all over, and my head feels better (less inflamed, better blood flow, more alert)...

Does anyone understand how proteolytic enzymes work? I would love to understand the mechanisms better.. I tried digestive enzymes (not proteolytic) which did nothing... supposedly, proteolytic enzymes are systemic and work on inflammation vs digestive enzymes. that's all I've got.. .thanks

 

[Remy]

From https://nutritionreview.org/2013/04/controlling-inflammation-proteolytic-enzymes/

Proteolytic enzymes, such as bromelain, papain, pancreatin, trypsin, chymotrypsin, and rutin, are essential regulators and modulators of the inflammatory response. Among their important actions is a seven- to ten-fold increase in the “appetite” of macrophages and in the potency of natural killer (NK) cells. Proteolytic (protein-destroying) enzymes also degrade pathogenic complexes that can inhibit normal immune function. These immune complexes, which consist of an antigen bound to an antibody, are a normal part of the immune response. But when immune complexes occur in excess, they are a principal cause of certain kidney diseases, nerve inflammations, and a number of rheumatologic diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis. Evidence suggests that trypsin, papain, and other proteolytic enzymes can break up existing pathogenic immune complexes and even prevent their formation in the first place, enhancing lymphatic drainage. The bottom line of these actions is a regulatory or stimulatory effect on the immune system.
Proteolytic enzymes modulate the inflammatory process by a variety of mechanisms, including reducing the swelling of mucous membranes, decreasing capillary permeability, and dissolving blood clot-forming fibrin deposits and microthrombi.
By reducing the viscosity (thickness) of the blood, enzymes improve circulation. This consequently increases the supply of oxygen and nutrients to and the transport of harmful waste products away from traumatized tissue. Proteolytic enzymes also help break down plasma proteins and cellular debris at the site of an injury into smaller fragments. This greatly facilitates their passage through the lymphatic system, resulting in more rapid resolution of swelling, with the consequent relief of pain and discomfort.

 

[Remy]

Also read here:

http://www.drmarcantel.com/systemic-enzyme-therapy-for-pain/

When referring to enzymatic supplements, it’s important to distinguish between those used as digestive and systemic aids. Digestive enzymes are taken orally with food in order to help break down food for improved digestion. Systemic enzymes are taken orally in between meals. The timing of the medication is a crucial component of its success: the medication must be taken one hour or more before or after eating to obtain its full systemic effectiveness to reduce inflammation and pain. This way the enzymes can be absorbed in substantial quantities into the blood to promote the desired effects.

 

[Issie]

Something else to put on my list. However, one time I had issues with bromelin making my blood too thin. Already on antiinflammatory herbs that also thin blood. Will have to watch that. Have to get my inflammation down and can't use NSAIDS.

Issie

 

[ankaa]

Something else to put on my list. However, one time I had issues with bromelin making my blood too thin. Already on antiinflammatory herbs that also thin blood. Will have to watch that. Have to get my inflammation down and can't use NSAIDS.

Issie

Which anti-inflammatory herbs do you take?

 

[ankaa]

From https://nutritionreview.org/2013/04/controlling-inflammation-proteolytic-enzymes/

"Proteolytic enzymes, such as bromelain, papain, pancreatin, trypsin, chymotrypsin, and rutin, are essential regulators and modulators of the inflammatory response. Among their important actions is a seven- to ten-fold increase in the “appetite” of macrophages and in the potency of natural killer (NK) cells. Proteolytic (protein-destroying) enzymes also degrade pathogenic complexes that can inhibit normal immune function. These immune complexes, which consist of an antigen bound to an antibody, are a normal part of the immune response. But when immune complexes occur in excess, they are a principal cause of certain kidney diseases, nerve inflammations, and a number of rheumatologic diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis. Evidence suggests that trypsin, papain, and other proteolytic enzymes can break up existing pathogenic immune complexes and even prevent their formation in the first place, enhancing lymphatic drainage. The bottom line of these actions is a regulatory or stimulatory effect on the immune system.
... This consequently increases the supply of oxygen and nutrients to and the transport of harmful waste products away from traumatized tissue. Proteolytic enzymes also help break down plasma proteins and cellular debris at the site of an injury into smaller fragments. This greatly facilitates their passage through the lymphatic system, resulting in more rapid resolution of swelling, with the consequent relief of pain and discomfort."

=

I have extremely poor NK cell function, so I was glad to read that proteolytic enzymes could help..

What are immune complexes? I've looked it up, but still don't understand, or understand how they affect ppl w CFS.

 

[Issie]

Which anti-inflammatory herbs do you take?

Turmeric, ginger and curcumin. There are others, but these are the ones that seem to help me the best. I love the herbs I've used from Supreme Nutrition. Lots of their products help with inflammation.

Issie

 

[Remy]

What are immune complexes? I've looked it up, but still don't understand, or understand how they affect ppl w CFS.

"Normally, insoluble immune complexes that are formed are cleared by the phagocytic cells of the immune system, but when an excess of antigen–antibody are present, the immune complexes are often deposited in tissues, where they can elicit complement activation, localised inflammation resulting in the generation of tissue lesions in a variety of autoimmune diseases, exacerbating disease pathology. "

http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0001118.html

 

[Cort]

How much wobenzyme does it take and do you need to take both wobenzyme and vascuzyme to get the effect? Does it help with PEM?

Wobenzyme and vascuzyme have both been amazingly helpful (along w probiotics)... better than any pain treatment a doctor has prescribed! I feel way less stiff & sore all over, and my head feels better (less inflamed, better blood flow, more alert)...

Does anyone understand how proteolytic enzymes work? I would love to understand the mechanisms better.. I tried digestive enzymes (not proteolytic) which did nothing... supposedly, proteolytic enzymes are systemic and work on inflammation vs digestive enzymes. that's all I've got.. .thanks

 

[Cort]

"Proteolytic enzymes, such as bromelain, papain, pancreatin, trypsin, chymotrypsin, and rutin, are essential regulators and modulators of the inflammatory response. Among their important actions is a seven- to ten-fold increase in the “appetite” of macrophages and in the potency of natural killer (NK) cells. Proteolytic (protein-destroying) enzymes also degrade pathogenic complexes that can inhibit normal immune function. These immune complexes, which consist of an antigen bound to an antibody, are a normal part of the immune response. But when immune complexes occur in excess, they are a principal cause of certain kidney diseases, nerve inflammations, and a number of rheumatologic diseases, including rheumatoid arthritis. Evidence suggests that trypsin, papain, and other proteolytic enzymes can break up existing pathogenic immune complexes and even prevent their formation in the first place, enhancing lymphatic drainage. The bottom line of these actions is a regulatory or stimulatory effect on the immune system.
... This consequently increases the supply of oxygen and nutrients to and the transport of harmful waste products away from traumatized tissue. Proteolytic enzymes also help break down plasma proteins and cellular debris at the site of an injury into smaller fragments. This greatly facilitates their passage through the lymphatic system, resulting in more rapid resolution of swelling, with the consequent relief of pain and discomfort."

=

I have extremely poor NK cell function, so I was glad to read that proteolytic enzymes could help..

What are immune complexes? I've looked it up, but still don't understand, or understand how they affect ppl w CFS.

Wow...I had no idea they could possibly help with NK cell functioning...

 

[ankaa]

How much wobenzyme does it take and do you need to take both wobenzyme and vascuzyme to get the effect? Does it help with PEM?

I haven't noticed that it helps w PEM YET, but I think you have to take high doses for ~6 mos (high = 6 caps 3x per day on an empty stomach)... It even helps my head (less sinus pressure, less heavy head, feel more alert)... The high dosage gets expensive, but it's worth a trial for a couple of months. I've done the initial trial, and want to extend it to 6 mos of high dose...It's a supplement that I'm really excited about b/c it seems to make a significant impact on my health w/o side effects. One caveat: the first week I got a BAD headache that lasted one day, however that was it... In hindsight, I think it really broke up some kind of congestion in my body and that's what knocked me out for a day..

I can't afford it right now, but it's at the top of my list in the spreadsheet that I use to track helpful supplements: probiotics (low histamine, e.g., culturelle/l rhamnosus; align/b infantis; jarrow ideal bowel/l plantarum), proteolytic enzymes (wobie or vascuzyme), calcium/vitamin d and zinc are consistently helpful... Many others that are helpful as needed (quercetin & rutin for MCAS; OLE and SAM-e when my stomach can tolerate it)

Read the reviews on Amazon.. so many amazing stories of ppl like me, who have tried every doctor prescribed pain killer (and much more) to no avail... then they try wobie and it does the trick... If you have joint pain, stiffness, soreness, try it!

https://www.amazon.com/Garden-Life-..._only_reviews&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=helpful

 

[ankaa]

@Cort - the directions say 3 pills, 3x per day between meals... So, the "high dose" is just doubling the directed dosage.

Re PEM, I think the stiffness and soreness and joint pain is what makes me so tired, so I think that if I can break that up or alleviate it, it *should* help, but we'll see... next step is a long trial at a high dose.

 

[Cort]

@Cort - the directions say 3 pills, 3x per day between meals... So, the "high dose" is just doubling the directed dosage.

Re PEM, I think the stiffness and soreness and joint pain is what makes me so tired, so I think that if I can break that up or alleviate it, it *should* help, but we'll see... next step is a long trial at a high dose.

It is expensive but it came highly recommended - actually from a holistic vet who recommended it for my dog but I was looking at it and thinking why not for me? (lol)

You're taking the vascuzyme with it as well.

Good on you for doing a spreadsheet.

 

[ankaa]

"Normally, insoluble immune complexes that are formed are cleared by the phagocytic cells of the immune system, but when an excess of antigen–antibody are present, the immune complexes are often deposited in tissues, where they can elicit complement activation, localised inflammation resulting in the generation of tissue lesions in a variety of autoimmune diseases, exacerbating disease pathology. "

http://www.els.net/WileyCDA/ElsArticle/refId-a0001118.html

I don't understand what any of that means in plain English, or how it relates to CFS.. e.g., do I have "an excess of antigen-antibody" in my body? what is "complement activation"?

 

[ankaa]

It is expensive but it came highly recommended - actually from a holistic vet who recommended it for my dog but I was looking at it and thinking why not for me? (lol)

You're taking the vascuzyme with it as well.

Good on you for doing a spreadsheet.

I don't take it WITH vascuzyme... I take one or the other... The ingredients are the same, but he amounts and sources are different... At this point, I'm not sure which is more effective... My doc has vascuzyme, so I got it from her out of convenience, but I may go back to wobie.... btw - I notice that I have a strange body odor when I take wobie! I don't know what it is, but it's not present when I take vascuzyme! If anyone knows the difference between the formulations, I would love to understand better...