Ritchie Shoemaker Talks With Chris Kresser on Mold - for over 1 1/2 Hours!

[Cort]

This is quite an interview! Over an hour - I haven't seen it yet. Kresser always asks good questions, though.

"Dr. Shoemaker is a pioneer in understanding how low-dose biotoxin exposure, including toxic mold and algae, impacts our health and contributes to disease. Find out what chronic inflammatory response syndrome is, how people get exposed, and who is susceptible."

You can find the transcript here but I would listen to it, if possible - he's an engaging talker

• http://chriskresser.com/dr-ritchie-shoemaker-on-chronic-inflammatory-response-syndrome/

 

[San Diego]

Good stuff. The inflammatory piece of the puzzle seems to be the only thing agreed upon by top ME/CFS docs.

I wonder why we don’t hear more success stories with the Shoemaker protocols? Are these patients out living life apart from forums, or are they still muddling through like so many of us?

 

[Cort]

Good question...
Chris seemed to feel that Cheney was gung ho on Shoemaker and then backed off.
Where are the success stories?

Good stuff. The inflammatory piece of the puzzle seems to be the only thing agreed upon by top ME/CFS docs.

I wonder why we don’t hear more success stories with the Shoemaker protocols? Are these patients out living life apart from forums, or are they still muddling through like so many of us?

 

[Forebearance]

I really appreciate how much Dr. Shoemaker has figured out about the inflammatory cascade that happens in people exposed to biological neurotoxins. It explains how inflammation can cause so many different symptoms.

And it applies so well to us, even those of us who don't have biotoxin poisoning. We still have the same inflammatory cascade going on, it seems. I hope more research is done into the inflammation part of his theory.

But cases of ME/CFS seem like they aren't as straightforward as a person who starts out healthy, goes and lives or works in a moldy building and becomes sick from it. Dr. Shoemaker has cured so many people with regular mold or algae poisoning, or CIRS, as he calls it. It just feels like there must be something else going on in us, in addition to the poisoning. Because I don't know anyone who has been completey cured of ME/CFS by his protocol. I only know of people who have been helped, or have improved somewhat.

Maybe the difference could be because we had a virus involved in the beginning of our illness, while the regular mold poisoning patients didn't. Does that ring true for anyone? So I like his theory, but his treatment protocol doesn't quite do the job for me and others I know with ME/CFS.

 

[Forebearance]

I want to add that the problem I had with Dr. Shoemaker's treatment protocol was that I couldn't get it to work for a person who is super sensitive to medications.
I couldn't tolerate the CSM (and I doubt I would have tolerated Welchol, either). So I got stuck on the first step of his protocol, trying to get the toxins out of me with gentler binders. I spent years on this one step.

But then Dr. Brewer's protocol came along, and it is flexible enough to modify for super sensitive people. I could get it to a low enough dose for me, and it still worked! And it continues to work, so it is really encouraging.

 

[Issie]

I'm using herbals, enzymes, essential oils and doing cleanses. It is helping. I'm jazzed!!!!! For sure another piece of the puzzle.

Issie

 

[Ryan]

I have been a part of this forum for a few years and have never commented. I have been diagnosed with Fibro/CFS for 9 years and 4 months. That is until last week when I finally got diagnosed with CIRS through all the testing methods. In this time I have visited about 120 Dr.'s and have been to some of the leading Fibro/CFS Dr.'s out there - spent a fortune. Never once did I ever come across literature that I read (and I read a lot), and never once did I speak with a Dr. who ever mentioned CIRS until just recently. Glad to see Cort talk about it on this site - I just did a search. This subject is one of the largest missing puzzle pieces in the subject of chronic illness that is multi-system and multi-symptom. I love that they can tell me what I have it. Dr. Shoemaker has a protocol that I am going to follow and if it works I will let you know. Will copy and paste this to the other CIRS threads.

 

[Issie]

I have been a part of this forum for a few years and have never commented. I have been diagnosed with Fibro/CFS for 9 years and 4 months. That is until last week when I finally got diagnosed with CIRS through all the testing methods. In this time I have visited about 120 Dr.'s and have been to some of the leading Fibro/CFS Dr.'s out there - spent a fortune. Never once did I ever come across literature that I read (and I read a lot), and never once did I speak with a Dr. who ever mentioned CIRS until just recently. Glad to see Cort talk about it on this site - I just did a search. This subject is one of the largest missing puzzle pieces in the subject of chronic illness that is multi-system and multi-symptom. I love that they can tell me what I have it. Dr. Shoemaker has a protocol that I am going to follow and if it works I will let you know. Will copy and paste this to the other CIRS threads.

I found I had to do more than his protocol. What I did for mold appears to have put my protozoa in check. Just had an appointment with Dr Fry and he wonders if he would even find it in my blood any more. I did another round of Doxycycoline and had zero herx. Before I could barely use 3 pills a week. This time I did 2 pills a day for a full month. Yayyyyy! I'm still doing cleanses and detox. You need to do binders. I found DEarth and coconut charcoal to be better tolerated than Chlostyromin. I did however use it first for 3 weeks. I've found a mixture of x-clear with collidal silver sprayed in the nose to be good for MARCONS. I use essential oils and many herbals from Supreme Nutrition. Use a lot of coconut products and stevia- both kill fungus/protozoa. I have found using curcurmin, ginger, cinnamon, turmeric, blk pepper, long pepper in coffee with MCT oil and coconut milk and stevia to be a good start to the day. (I call it Thai coffee. It's yummy.)

Alot of cleanses targeting different organs and also parasite cleanses have been helpful. Using lots of probiotics and rotating kinds another big help. Address H pylori, also helpful.

Going grain free and mostly dairy free and sugar free - very important. (I still use a crumble of feta once in awhile.) Trying to eat as clean and organic as possible a must.

Get all chemicals out of your life. Read labels. This means soaps, shampoos, toothpaste, cleaners etc. It takes a major lifestyle adjustment. But is so worth it.
Just so you know.....the cleaner I got with what I ate and used - the more sensitive I got to what should have been noticed way before. You will pick things up faster and realize they were making you sick.....but you were so toxic you didn't know it. It's been 2 years of my working on this. I still have a ways to go.....but in some ways I'm so much better. I got bad genetics and have more challenges .....but I'm working on it.

At times as you cleanse, you get overwhelmed. It will mess with you emotionally as you body starts to let go of the toxins it's holding. But with time, you feel more clear. Our fat and muscles hold a lot of things and as that diminishes.....lots of things come up. It's a cellular cleanse and it will be an emotional cleanse too. (You may not understand what I'm saying right now. But when you look back, it will make sense.)

Issie

 

[Issie]

You can do a self test for mold/biotoxins at VCSTest.com. very helpful to keep track of how you are doing on your journey.

Issie

 

[Ryan]

I found I had to do more than his protocol. What I did for mold appears to have put my protozoa in check. Just had an appointment with Dr Fry and he wonders if he would even find it in my blood any more. I did another round of Doxycycoline and had zero herx. Before I could barely use 3 pills a week. This time I did 2 pills a day for a full month. Yayyyyy! I'm still doing cleanses and detox. You need to do binders. I found DEarth and coconut charcoal to be better tolerated than Chlostyromin. I did however use it first for 3 weeks. I've found a mixture of x-clear with collidal silver sprayed in the nose to be good for MARCONS. I use essential oils and many herbals from Supreme Nutrition. Use a lot of coconut products and stevia- both kill fungus/protozoa. I have found using curcurmin, ginger, cinnamon, turmeric, blk pepper, long pepper in coffee with MCT oil and coconut milk and stevia to be a good start to the day. (I call it Thai coffee. It's yummy.)

Alot of cleanses targeting different organs and also parasite cleanses have been helpful. Using lots of probiotics and rotating kinds another big help. Address H pylori, also helpful.

Going grain free and mostly dairy free and sugar free - very important. (I still use a crumble of feta once in awhile.) Trying to eat as clean and organic as possible a must.

Get all chemicals out of your life. Read labels. This means soaps, shampoos, toothpaste, cleaners etc. It takes a major lifestyle adjustment. But is so worth it.
Just so you know.....the cleaner I got with what I ate and used - the more sensitive I got to what should have been noticed way before. You will pick things up faster and realize they were making you sick.....but you were so toxic you didn't know it. It's been 2 years of my working on this. I still have a ways to go.....but in some ways I'm so much better. I got bad genetics and have more challenges .....but I'm working on it.

At times as you cleanse, you get overwhelmed. It will mess with you emotionally as you body starts to let go of the toxins it's holding. But with time, you feel more clear. Our fat and muscles hold a lot of things and as that diminishes.....lots of things come up. It's a cellular cleanse and it will be an emotional cleanse too. (You may not understand what I'm saying right now. But when you look back, it will make sense.)

Issie

Thank you Issie - appreciate you taking the time to explain that. I am going to save this info. I just read Dr. Neil Nathan's book last night where he condenses Dr. Shoemaker's info, Dr. Brewer's info, and his own info into a short two hour read. So a lot of what you're saying sounds familiar. In Dr. Nathan's book called 'Mold & Myotoxins' 2016, he says that there was a study done in a sampling of people who were diagnosed Fibro/CFS and 93% of the sample showed that toxic mold was either the root cause of their sickness or contributed greatly to it. Yet, after seeing all these so called Fibro/CFS specialists and reading their books NOT A SINGLE ONE thought to mention this subject??? So frustrating and I think this website will be a great leader in getting this information out there. Dr. Shoemaker himself was asked to do a study at a pediatric unit where there were 163 patients diagnosed with CFS. He did the HLA gene test and found all 163 had this gene that made them genetically susceptible (25% of people have that gene). So with further testing Dr. Shoemaker confirmed that all 163 had CIRS not CFS. This is making me crazy thinking that I've spent so much money/time and not a single Dr. thought to mention CIRS. I got lucky and visited a few LLMD's wondering if I had Lyme hiding in me. The 5th one just happened to be a certified Shoemaker Dr. and strongly felt I had CIRS. Had never even heard of it and felt so lucky that I found her so I could finally know what's been wrong all these years. Cort, if you're reading this we need to get the word out. I've already started the process of contacting as many of my previous 120'ish past Dr.'s to make sure they know what I had and try and help prevent others from this horrible education.

 

[Issie]

Thank you Issie - appreciate you taking the time to explain that. I am going to save this info. I just read Dr. Neil Nathan's book last night where he condenses Dr. Shoemaker's info, Dr. Brewer's info, and his own info into a short two hour read. So a lot of what you're saying sounds familiar. In Dr. Nathan's book called 'Mold & Myotoxins' 2016, he says that there was a study done in a sampling of people who were diagnosed Fibro/CFS and 93% of the sample showed that toxic mold was either the root cause of their sickness or contributed greatly to it. Yet, after seeing all these so called Fibro/CFS specialists and reading their books NOT A SINGLE ONE thought to mention this subject??? So frustrating and I think this website will be a great leader in getting this information out there. Dr. Shoemaker himself was asked to do a study at a pediatric unit where there were 163 patients diagnosed with CFS. He did the HLA gene test and found all 163 had this gene that made them genetically susceptible (25% of people have that gene). So with further testing Dr. Shoemaker confirmed that all 163 had CIRS not CFS. This is making me crazy thinking that I've spent so much money/time and not a single Dr. thought to mention CIRS. I got lucky and visited a few LLMD's wondering if I had Lyme hiding in me. The 5th one just happened to be a certified Shoemaker Dr. and strongly felt I had CIRS. Had never even heard of it and felt so lucky that I found her so I could finally know what's been wrong all these years. Cort, if you're reading this we need to get the word out. I've already started the process of contacting as many of my previous 120'ish past Dr.'s to make sure they know what I had and try and help prevent others from this horrible education.

I feel very fortunate myself to have found another piece of my puzzle. It may not be all and everything. Keep that in mind. But it could be a big piece of the picture.

Issie

 

[Issie]

If you arent positive for Lyme or coinfections. You might look into Protomyzoa Rehumatica. Dr Stephen Fry in AZ is bioscientist doctor who discovered it. Seems to be a connection. Was for me.

Issie

 

[Lissa]

Wow. Long story short, I've been feeling worse the past few months and haven't kept up here on the forum. (Sorry for long post, but this story needs to get out there!!!!)

Fast forward to the past couple weeks: we started a master suite renovation and discovered toxic black mold in the bathroom. Completely hidden from sight, no smell etc. No signs of a problem whatsoever.

The minute my husband pulled off the baseboard he was overcome by it. He had no reason to anticipate any sort of issue there, so wasn't wearing any protection.

Within seconds he was like full blown ME/CFS. Cognitive dysfunction, woozy, confused, couldn't find words, exhausted, and the list goes on... and he's been sick ever since.

I was three rooms away and immediately felt worse myself. It was really really weird how fast I crashed too, and I was just sitting in s chair resting.

That was last week, and since then we've been to a mold doc (Shoemaker protocol), and had the house thoroughly tested. We are trying to evacuate and salvage things, and find a place that will take us and our cats until we can get remediation done.

Still waiting for all the test results to come in... hopefully by the end of this coming week. It is absolutely insane, stressful beyond words, and the cost of remediation is expected to be beyond comprehension.... gulp.

It looks like the builder screwed up the entire exterior of the house with no flashing, no vapor barrier, and improper installation of cedar shake shingle siding.

We are seriously loopy and sicker every time we go in the house, despite having sealed off the master suite. It is surreal.

The only silver lining is that this could very well and likely explain my last 6.5 years of sickness, as well a my husband's strange ailments stacking up over the years. I was ill with flu-like sickness for a couple months before buying this house and moving in. Never got better. Wow.

@Ryan we must talk.... I was stunned when I read your post, as I searched for CIRS related stuff.

Also - @Issie --- At the docs office, I failed the Vision Contrast test with flying colors. Hah! Totally couldn't see the last two columns or the bottom row at all. Crazy stuff.

Obviously it'll be hard to keep up on things here for now... but I'll do what I can. I feel like this story needs to be heard!

 

[Ryan]

Wow. Long story short, I've been feeling worse the past few months and haven't kept up here on the forum. (Sorry for long post, but this story needs to get out there!!!!)

Fast forward to the past couple weeks: we started a master suite renovation and discovered toxic black mold in the bathroom. Completely hidden from sight, no smell etc. No signs of a problem whatsoever.

The minute my husband pulled off the baseboard he was overcome by it. He had no reason to anticipate any sort of issue there, so wasn't wearing any protection.

Within seconds he was like full blown ME/CFS. Cognitive dysfunction, woozy, confused, couldn't find words, exhausted, and the list goes on... and he's been sick ever since.

I was three rooms away and immediately felt worse myself. It was really really weird how fast I crashed too, and I was just sitting in s chair resting.

That was last week, and since then we've been to a mold doc (Shoemaker protocol), and had the house thoroughly tested. We are trying to evacuate and salvage things, and find a place that will take us and our cats until we can get remediation done.

Still waiting for all the test results to come in... hopefully by the end of this coming week. It is absolutely insane, stressful beyond words, and the cost of remediation is expected to be beyond comprehension.... gulp.

It looks like the builder screwed up the entire exterior of the house with no flashing, no vapor barrier, and improper installation of cedar shake shingle siding.

We are seriously loopy and sicker every time we go in the house, despite having sealed off the master suite. It is surreal.

The only silver lining is that this could very well and likely explain my last 6.5 years of sickness, as well a my husband's strange ailments stacking up over the years. I was ill with flu-like sickness for a couple months before buying this house and moving in. Never got better. Wow.

@Ryan we must talk.... I was stunned when I read your post, as I searched for CIRS related stuff.

Also - @Issie --- At the docs office, I failed the Vision Contrast test with flying colors. Hah! Totally couldn't see the last two columns or the bottom row at all. Crazy stuff.

Obviously it'll be hard to keep up on things here for now... but I'll do what I can. I feel like this story needs to be heard!

Lissa, I'm not a real active participant on this site, but have followed it for many years. I was misdiagnosed with Fibro/CFS until I finally met with a Shoemaker Dr. I was recently diagnosed in Dec. of 2016. Turns out I have had Mold Illness, aka Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS) this entire time - 100% sure - no guessing at all. Fibro/CFS is a guess and no one can argue that. I flew to 5 different states and met with well over 100 Dr.'s trying to figure out this Fibro/CFS stuff. Turns out I never had it and it turns out that Fibro/CFS in almost all cases is Mold Illness or Mold Illness contributes greatly to their root cause. There is no test for Fibro/CFS, but you can 100% be diagnosed and treated for CIRS. From what you just said I can guarantee this is the root cause of your illness. Do the Shoemaker labs, Neuroquant MRI, MARCoNS test, and VCS test. If you do this I am certain you will come back positive. There are some that can get better just by getting out. But a good number of us chronically ill will need treatment. The good news is you are on the right path. Good luck!!

 

[Cort]

Wow. Long story short, I've been feeling worse the past few months and haven't kept up here on the forum. (Sorry for long post, but this story needs to get out there!!!!)

Fast forward to the past couple weeks: we started a master suite renovation and discovered toxic black mold in the bathroom. Completely hidden from sight, no smell etc. No signs of a problem whatsoever.

The minute my husband pulled off the baseboard he was overcome by it. He had no reason to anticipate any sort of issue there, so wasn't wearing any protection.

Within seconds he was like full blown ME/CFS. Cognitive dysfunction, woozy, confused, couldn't find words, exhausted, and the list goes on... and he's been sick ever since.

I was three rooms away and immediately felt worse myself. It was really really weird how fast I crashed too, and I was just sitting in s chair resting.

That was last week, and since then we've been to a mold doc (Shoemaker protocol), and had the house thoroughly tested. We are trying to evacuate and salvage things, and find a place that will take us and our cats until we can get remediation done.

Still waiting for all the test results to come in... hopefully by the end of this coming week. It is absolutely insane, stressful beyond words, and the cost of remediation is expected to be beyond comprehension.... gulp.

It looks like the builder screwed up the entire exterior of the house with no flashing, no vapor barrier, and improper installation of cedar shake shingle siding.

We are seriously loopy and sicker every time we go in the house, despite having sealed off the master suite. It is surreal.

The only silver lining is that this could very well and likely explain my last 6.5 years of sickness, as well a my husband's strange ailments stacking up over the years. I was ill with flu-like sickness for a couple months before buying this house and moving in. Never got better. Wow.

@Ryan we must talk.... I was stunned when I read your post, as I searched for CIRS related stuff.

Also - @Issie --- At the docs office, I failed the Vision Contrast test with flying colors. Hah! Totally couldn't see the last two columns or the bottom row at all. Crazy stuff.

Obviously it'll be hard to keep up on things here for now... but I'll do what I can. I feel like this story needs to be heard!

OMG Lissa this really could be it for you.

Mold can be such a killer. I'm so glad that you found this. Amazing (and scary) that there was no evidence of this otherwise...

Crossing my fingers big time for you!

Please keep sharing on this thread or make another one...

 

[Lissa]

OMG Lissa this really could be it for you.

Mold can be such a killer. I'm so glad that you found this. Amazing (and scary) that there was no evidence of this otherwise...

Crossing my fingers big time for you!

Please keep sharing on this thread or make another one...

Thanks Cort!! I'll do my best to keep posting. We are still looking for a safe haven here- and still waiting for the test results on the house and the official remediation plan.

We've been staying in my little art studio until we can find an apartment. The studio is a little shed in the backyard, no plumbing, but at least itt has heat! It's kinda like camping. Except it's VT in the winter. Fun times.

Using the house for bathroom, shower, cooking -- but can't be in there long before both of us "feel it" and flare up. Doesn't matter that we sealed off the master suite--- the whole house is contaminated.

I must add that it's maddening because it is invisible! The spores are nanoparticles. You can't see them or smell anything, but they attach to dust. Which of course is everywhere. It's like smallpox on blankets... or Chernobyl: it defies everything we normally rely on for fact checking.... all our senses! You'd never know it was there. Other than being mysteriously ill.

 

[Lissa]

Lissa, I'm not a real active participant on this site, but have followed it for many years. I was misdiagnosed with Fibro/CFS until I finally met with a Shoemaker Dr. I was recently diagnosed in Dec. of 2016. Turns out I have had Mold Illness, aka Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS) this entire time - 100% sure - no guessing at all. Fibro/CFS is a guess and no one can argue that. I flew to 5 different states and met with well over 100 Dr.'s trying to figure out this Fibro/CFS stuff. Turns out I never had it and it turns out that Fibro/CFS in almost all cases is Mold Illness or Mold Illness contributes greatly to their root cause. There is no test for Fibro/CFS, but you can 100% be diagnosed and treated for CIRS. From what you just said I can guarantee this is the root cause of your illness. Do the Shoemaker labs, Neuroquant MRI, MARCoNS test, and VCS test. If you do this I am certain you will come back positive. There are some that can get better just by getting out. But a good number of us chronically ill will need treatment. The good news is you are on the right path. Good luck!!

Thanks for the info Ryan! Much appreciated! I should have all the test results you mentioned in the coming week or two. I had a massive fail on the VCS at the mold doc's office. Completely couldn't see the last two columns or last row and a half.

She sent me home with the CSM prescription. Apparently I need to wait to start it so I can do a low amalose diet and add extra fish oil for a week first. That is supposed to alleviate some of the side effects hopefully.

I also need to get away from the toxins --- hopefully all that will work out and I can start the healing process by the end of this week. Sounds like it may be a long haul because I've been sick so long. Fingers crossed that there are improvements to come!!!

 

[Forebearance]

Good luck with this, Lissa!
I believe Erik Johnson feels that if you can get completely away from the mold toxins that have been making you sick, it will allow your immune system to calm down and you could feel much better.

 

[Issie]

@Lissa, sorry I haven't been here much either. Sadly it has been almost 3 years since my exposure and I'm just now starting to feel like it isn't as much of an issue. I had to get rid of nearly everything that had been in the moldy house. The spores are so small, once you are so sensitive, even a tiny bit will create a crash. We sunned and cleaned and still many things just had to go. Even my clothes, many of them, had to go. People don't realize how life altering this is and how much it can affect someone.
Issie

 

[SueS]

Oh my golly gosh, Lissa. This could be massive for you. Which I hope is some kind of warm comfort for you sleeping in your art studio!

Is the test you did the same as the one on vcstest.com? I did that back in 2014 and it suggested that yes, I do have some kind of biotoxin issue going on. But then didn't do anything more.

Keep us informed, and I hope you find some alternative accom really soon.