1 yr update/Healing with herbal anti-virals

[bobby]

re: "first getting worse before you can get better", I wanna pick you guys' brain a little bit. I've been doubting this saying lately... cause how do you know if sth is harming you in order to help you later on, as opposed to just plain harming you? with the cat's claw in my case, I was just getting sicker and sicker, and lowering the dose didn't really have any effect. (btw I took the cat's claw for four months, which I think is a pretty good stretch of time)

especially with the whole Naviaux study, and Davis and Naviaux stating all these things about how using antivirals might give some people temporary relief but is gonna hurt us in the long run.

Cat's claw is a natural antiviral so following their hypothesis that would mean that any positive effects you get from cat's claw are secondary to what's actually wrong, and will be putting extra stress on the mitochondria which in their theory will eventually delay our getting better.

I am not stating this as fact, would just like to hear some of your views about this. How do you know the difference between 'worse first, then better' vs. just plain harming yourself?

 

[Empty]

Thanks issie
Super helpful. Wish I could just take the bottle and be cured already lol. One cup of cat claw tea at a time...
It looks like a really safe, non toxic adaptogen.

I now have it here! Check.

I eat between 2 - 3,000 calories a day so I should be ok on that front. Check.

Doing the low fat high carb vegan diet, keeping the calories from wholefoods fats below 10% with specific reliable, identifiable results. Check.

Have high vit c from diet and above rda for all other nutrients. Check.

Eating daily nori for the iodine. 10- 14g a day Check.

Have a b12 spray on tongue. Check.

Added in mag. Spray. today. Check.

All ready

 

[Empty]

re: "first getting worse before you can get better", I wanna pick you guys' brain a little bit. I've been doubting this saying lately... cause how do you know if sth is harming you in order to help you later on, as opposed to just plain harming you? with the cat's claw in my case, I was just getting sicker and sicker, and lowering the dose didn't really have any effect. (btw I took the cat's claw for four months, which I think is a pretty good stretch of time)

especially with the whole Naviaux study, and Davis and Naviaux stating all these things about how using antivirals might give some people temporary relief but is gonna hurt us in the long run.

Cat's claw is a natural antiviral so following their hypothesis that would mean that any positive effects you get from cat's claw are secondary to what's actually wrong, and will be putting extra stress on the mitochondria which in their theory will eventually delay our getting better.

I am not stating this as fact, would just like to hear some of your views about this. How do you know the difference between 'worse first, then better' vs. just plain harming yourself?

Cross posted. Excellent points. It is really tricky. I think anti viral herbs, particularly adaptogens are a different kettle of fish to the drugs.

I think most problems are with massive die off, allergy, not being able to detox body? I don't know.

 

[Tammy7]

first getting worse before you can get better", I wanna pick you guys' brain a little bit. I've been doubting this saying lately... cause how do you know if sth is harming you in order to help you later on, as opposed to just plain harming you? with the cat's claw in my case, I was just getting sicker and sicker, and lowering the dose didn't really have any effect. (btw I took the cat's claw for four months, which I think is a pretty good stretch of time)

Good question bobby. This is something I've always wondered about in the 20 yrs I've been trying to get well. (If I felt worse with any given protocol/supp I questioned.........is this actually harming me?). Speaking for myself I can only tell you that I was going to stick with this particular protocol no matter what. I was at the end of my rope and I was determined to keep at it. I suspect that most of us have methylation problems and need to address that as well as diet. ( I learned that some foods feed bacteria and viruses)........so the diet is geared for starving them .

I don't know that I would necessarily be at the level of healing I am at.......with just the herbal anti-virals without also addressing methylation as well as diet. In the past I've never really been serious about my diet............or what I thought was an OK diet............wasn't really a good diet for a person with a virus that was making them feel like HELL. I had to take the diet to another level that I never have before. (I wasn't very motivated about this AT ALL in the beginning). I didn't make the transition to the good anti-viral diet very quickly..............it was a slow transition.

I don't know what kind of dosages you were using for the 4 months that you took Cats Claw. For me............I didn't start seeing any good improvements within 4 months (this made it difficult to keep the faith)............but I was also in some support groups that had members who were also using the herbal anti-virals and change of diet..............so we encouraged each other to keep going. I knew from other people's experience that it was taking a long time to see improvements......so I kept on going. In the past I don't think I tried any one protocol past 3 months........so this time I was determined.

Some people didn't start out with Cats Claw.............but instead started with the licorice root and lysine ..(or other herbal anti-virals)......and then later picked up the Cats Claw. Some people had to stay at very low dosages for a lengthy amount of time. I think it depends on how toxic/stagnant the liver is, how damaged the thyroid and adrenals are, viral load, etc. etc. Also............some members just started with the zinc, vit. C and B12......before starting any anti-virals.

Another factor/monkey wrench to throw in (could there be anymore........geesh) is the fact that some of us may also be dealing with heavy metals. The Spirulina and barley grass juice powder I take are helping with that to some extent......and they do serve other purposes as well.

Damn it...............I wish this whole process was easier. I want my experience to be of encouragement to others...........but instead I'm afraid it sounds like a lot of hard work! (well......it was at first.......but not so much anymore). All I can say is if someone decides to try this type of protocol.........just go at the pace you are comfortable with..............and if that means little tiny baby steps........that is OK.

 

[Tammy7]

@Empty...........at the risk of sounding like a know it all..............I encourage you to add zinc to your fab list of supplements.............I think it is critical. I like Eidons liquid Zinc sulfate. If I was told I could only pick one supplement to take for the rest of my life.......it would be zinc.

 

[bobby]

@Tammy7 thanks, what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me... My issue though is that I am so sensitive that I am unable to take many things at the same time, even if I take baby doses of all of that, it will be like a nuclear bomb explosion. My body just can't take it and it feels like it fights back. I get the craziest symptoms and feel like I'm being poisoned... If it were a die off, shouldn't I feel worse first and then better? The better/slightly better part never happened once in four months. It was just feeling sicker, and then going back to baseline once the drops were out of my system.

That's why I started just with the baby dose of cat's claw... my diet has been very clean for a very long time, I have tried many different dietary approaches and ended up finding something that felt like it was supporting me and nurturing me instead of making my body act up and feeling starved and weak.

I have been taking pure liquorice root for a very long time (more for blood volume than anything else I guess) which my body reacts very well to, but it doesn't seem to help me in terms of actual progress.

I'm gonna think about maybe trying again with cat's claw tea. But tbh the experience was so excruciating that I'm not very keen on going there again atm...

 

[Tammy7]

@Tammy7 thanks, what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me... My issue though is that I am so sensitive that I am unable to take many things at the same time, even if I take baby doses of all of that, it will be like a nuclear bomb explosion. My body just can't take it and it feels like it fights back. I get the craziest symptoms and feel like I'm being poisoned... If it were a die off, shouldn't I feel worse first and then better? The better/slightly better part never happened once in four months. It was just feeling sicker, and then going back to baseline once the drops were out of my system.

That's why I started just with the baby dose of cat's claw... my diet has been very clean for a very long time, I have tried many different dietary approaches and ended up finding something that felt like it was supporting me and nurturing me instead of making my body act up and feeling starved and weak.

I have been taking pure liquorice root for a very long time (more for blood volume than anything else I guess) which my body reacts very well to, but it doesn't seem to help me in terms of actual progress.

I'm gonna think about maybe trying again with cat's claw tea. But tbh the experience was so excruciating that I'm not very keen on going there again atm...

bobby..........I don't blame you ....................if you should ever decided to take anti-viral supps again I would just start out with the L-lysine and start with low dosage. Like I said before some people just start out taking L-lysine and Vit. C...........and the licorice root. The healing journey for me and the others that are on the same type of protocol has not been linear.......that's for sure. Some go through a period of feeling better and then there's another dip which is just another deeper level of healing............but one thing we have experienced is you do finally turn a corner. That doesn't necessarily mean you're all of a sudden normal.......but you definitely can tell at a certain point that things have leveled out and you are at a new "base level".

I know its not easy.............if I had to start all over again...........I would have taken even more baby steps than I did.

 

[bobby]

thanks @Tammy7 I appreciate your kind answer

 

[SueS]

I had to stop taking the l-lysine as well because it was making me feel nutty. I took the CC for a month and am having a break till the non-alcohol one arrives from iherb.


I did the Jadin protocol for a year, about 12 years ago. A year of pulsing abx. It was horrid. Maany of the abx made ne feel crazy. But then i improved a lot over ensuing years. At one point i was working 20 hours a week (and needing a 3-day weekend to recover, but still ...)

So even after that i still can't tell the diff bw doing harm and herxing. So frustrating.

I've crashed since stopping the cc. But i was also taking colloidal silver too and am wondering if it was actually that which was doing me good. I have never had a bottle of colloidal silver my body didn't LOVE

 

[Tammy7]

I had to stop taking the l-lysine as well because it was making me feel nutty. I took the CC for a month and am having a break till the non-alcohol one arrives from iherb.


I did the Jadin protocol for a year, about 12 years ago. A year of pulsing abx. It was horrid. Maany of the abx made ne feel crazy. But then i improved a lot over ensuing years. At one point i was working 20 hours a week (and needing a 3-day weekend to recover, but still ...)

So even after that i still can't tell the diff bw doing harm and herxing. So frustrating.

I've crashed since stopping the cc. But i was also taking colloidal silver too and am wondering if it was actually that which was doing me good. I have never had a bottle of colloidal silver my body didn't LOVE

The colloidal silver is a great anti-viral also. I take it off and on............and my body loves it too. How much did you take daily and for how long?

 

[SueS]

I used to take it about five years ago ... and then kinda forgot it existed. Bloody ME brain. Then I took a bottle recently for a month. Two tbsp a day of 15ppm strength after a loading dose.

Do you have breaks for a reason, @Tammy7? I would like to take it all the time but have a gutfeel that breaks are better.

 

[Tammy7]

I used to take it about five years ago ... and then kinda forgot it existed. Bloody ME brain. Then I took a bottle recently for a month. Two tbsp a day of 15ppm strength after a loading dose.

Do you have breaks for a reason, @Tammy7? I would like to take it all the time but have a gutfeel that breaks are better.

What I meant when I said I've taken it on and off is that if I suspect I have a bacterial infection of some kind, ie UTI, gut or other.....I take it. I have not added it yet to take continuously for anti-viral purposes only because I'm on the other anti-virals. Having said that though...........I instinctively feel like my body loves it as you mentioned yours does so in the future I am probably going to add it to my protocol. I think it is great also if you suspect any SIBO issues. (I suspect that for me) I have no reservations at all taking it continuously..........for me I will probably take for at least 6 months and then take a break.................but go by what your gut says. (that can be taken literally!)

 

[Prashanti]

What I meant when I said I've taken it on and off is that if I suspect I have a bacterial infection of some kind, ie UTI, gut or other.....I take it. I have not added it yet to take continuously for anti-viral purposes only because I'm on the other anti-virals. Having said that though...........I instinctively feel like my body loves it as you mentioned yours does so in the future I am probably going to add it to my protocol. I think it is great also if you suspect any SIBO issues. (I suspect that for me) I have no reservations at all taking it continuously..........for me I will probably take for at least 6 months and then take a break.................but go by what your gut says. (that can be taken literally!)

 

[Prashanti]

Tammy, you said the protocol you followed was for EBV. Have you tested and retested your blood? Does it show any change in the EBV?

 

[Tammy7]

Tammy, you said the protocol you followed was for EBV. Have you tested and retested your blood? Does it show any change in the EBV?

I have not retested in some years. The last time was about 4 yrs.? ago and it showed up as reactivated at that time. The tests aren't always reliable in my opinion.............if the EBV is buried in the liver or spleen or other areas it may not get picked up in the bloodstream.

 

[Kate]

Yes, I've been on herbal antivirals for quite some time, 18 months, and have gotten much better. 18 months ago I had to drive the 300 feet to the post office and take rests on the steps to pick up my mail. Two days ago I walked a very brisk mile through the woods while mushroom hunting with no dip whatsoever.

OMG.

The commercial herbals I've taken, and it changes, are artemisinin by Quicksilver, Biocidin, (this one http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/Advanced-Formula-Biocidin.html#tablist), and I've followed Stephen Buhner protocols, see his book on Herbal Antivirals, on Lyme, on Antibiotics. I learned to tincture my own herbs for a small fraction of buying them ready made, basically buy the dry herb and soak in strong alcohol for a few weeks, so I take them all the time and for many things.

So many herbs are antiviral that if you use them enough it almost doesn't matter after a while which protocol you use, though I began with the heavy hitters listed above. The bugs begin to change, adapt, as soon as you begin a protocol so I keep rotating them. Good ones that are easy to come by are astragalus, licorice, cordyceps, lemon balm, rhodiola, rosemary, sage, thyme. Eat your way healthy.

And for acute EBV Buhner recommends CHINESE skullcap (not lateriflora) ginger juice tea, andrographis, motherwort, passionflower, cordyceps, rhodiola, please read the book for dosage and protocol. He doesn't really say what to do for chronic infections but there is enough info to begin trying things. Obviously try small and carefully and not 20 herbs at a time.

I began using rhodiola, schisandra, licorice, ashwagandha and eleuthero that I bought from an apothecary then made myself, a common formula for adrenal support, at one point. Some of these herbs are potent antivirals as well.

The advantages to using herbs:

1) They are complex foods, not concentrated single chemicals so they will not harm you like medicine, side effects are rare in comparison to meds, as long as you can tolerate them and use informed dosages.

2) They are multifaceted in their management of viruses, so they might, for example, cause death of the infected cell while blocking the virus's ability to produce signal chemicals and reducing its capacity for proliferation. Multiple whammies.

3) We evolved completely integrated with the plant world and derived some huge portion of our "human" chemicals from plants. I am sketchy on the details but just about all of our hormones, for example, were invented by plants first. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/human-neurotransmitters-in-plants/ We come from plants, (and before that our earliest ancestors are bacteria). Thus using plants to heal is not only non invasive but a reclaiming of our genetic heritage. It is no exaggeration to claim that humans are not actually separate entities from plants. Enculturation has created the artifice of the divide but it does not exist.

4) This is why gut bacteria and diet are ESSENTIAL to healing. You can't create seratonin without healthy gut bacteria. It's the bacteria that make it.

Our beloved Jared Younger has just come out in favor of CURCUMIN (turmeric) as the anti inflammatory of choice.

Learn about herbs and food. Change the environment you live in, it can be impossible to heal in an environment that facilitated your collapse (I rented a room in a seaside town for 18 months and there turned the corner). Use brain plasticity to heal your trauma, lots of free stuff here and it works: http://irenelyon.com/ and eventually the body will begin to heal itself.

 

[kamodio]

I just finished a year on my protocol using the following supplements. Cats Claw, Licorice root liquid, L-lysine, Vit. C, B12, Zinc, Hawaain Spirulina, Barley grass juice extract. At first glance one might think that there is really nothing remarkable about this protocol/supps.........but the protocol is geared to kill viruses and boost the immune system. I am not the same person I was a year ago and for me that says a lot. I have been very ill with CFS for 20 yrs and basically gave up all hope of getting better. I am healing and no doubt in my mind now that I will continue healing. It feels surreal as I write this because I didn't think it was possible!

I started out with low doses of all the supplements and currently I'm taking these doses:
Cats Claw............1 dropperful 2x daily (started with 2 tiny drops 2x daily)
Licorice root liquid...........10 drops 2x daily (started with 2 tiny drops 2x daily)
B12 liquid (mixture of adeno and methyl)....2 dropperfuls 2x daily
Liquid Zinc Sulfate.......2 dropperfuls 2x daily
L-Lysine.........2,000 mgs 2x daily
Ester C...........2,000 mgs 2x daily
Hawaain Spirulina.......1 tsp daily (started with 1/8th of a tsp)
Barley grass juice extract.........1 tsp daily (started with 1/8th of a tsp)


Diet: Mostly fruits and Veggies..............a small amount of grain maybe 3 x a week............a small amount of animal protein maybe once a week...........no dairy, no eggs, no gluten, no oils except for coconut or olive. Now that I have more energy I make myself smoothies every day with lots of leafy greens and wild blueberries.

The first I would say 6 months were rough (viral die off)........then things began to level out and my down turns became less intense. On this protocol sometimes it felt like things got worse,(I almost stopped protocol) other times it didn't feel like anything was happening and then there were those times when I experienced positive things I hadn't felt in years. I am so glad I didn't stop the protocol because now I'm definitely reaping the rewards.

A lot of little symptoms have disappeared. My PEM MUCH better. My orthostatic intolerance MUCH MUCH better............this was one of my worse symptoms. I am going for walks now. I'm not looking for a place to sit down wherever I go. Pain MUCH better. I no longer have that poisoned yucky flu feeling. I am doing activites without thinking twice about it. I no longer feel like I got off a carnival ride and I hardly ever get dizzy like I used to. No more weird heart symptoms................I should look back on my notes because I know I'm leaving a lot out.............but this gives you a sample of my progress.

I have a feeling that the second year on this protocol...........that my healing will be accelerated compared to the first. I am planning to increase the doses of Cats Claw and licorice root even more. I've taken the following supps on and off. Magnesium Glycinate, Silica and MSM...........just in the last few months.

I hope this gives someone hope...............

Tammy, I am thrilled for you! Thank you for the update. I very much appreciate your sharing your protocol and that emotional detoxing occurs as well. As you know, I am following William's advice as well although I am only 3 1/2 months in. I have been having surges of anger and upwellings of tears at different times and I forgot that emotional release is part of the healing. Thank you for the reminder!

 

[kamodio]

@Tammy7 did you use a particular type of cat's claw? i realised after I bought mine,that it has alcohol in it. The recommended dose is 45 drops 2-3 times a day and I can't get above 6 drops twice a day. I'm wondering if a non-alcohol one would be easier. Thanks.

 

[Empty]

Yes, I've been on herbal antivirals for quite some time, 18 months, and have gotten much better. 18 months ago I had to drive the 300 feet to the post office and take rests on the steps to pick up my mail. Two days ago I walked a very brisk mile through the woods while mushroom hunting with no dip whatsoever.

OMG.

The commercial herbals I've taken, and it changes, are artemisinin by Quicksilver, Biocidin, (this one http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/Advanced-Formula-Biocidin.html#tablist), and I've followed Stephen Buhner protocols, see his book on Herbal Antivirals, on Lyme, on Antibiotics. I learned to tincture my own herbs for a small fraction of buying them ready made, basically buy the dry herb and soak in strong alcohol for a few weeks, so I take them all the time and for many things.

So many herbs are antiviral that if you use them enough it almost doesn't matter after a while which protocol you use, though I began with the heavy hitters listed above. The bugs begin to change, adapt, as soon as you begin a protocol so I keep rotating them. Good ones that are easy to come by are astragalus, licorice, cordyceps, lemon balm, rhodiola, rosemary, sage, thyme. Eat your way healthy.

And for acute EBV Buhner recommends CHINESE skullcap (not lateriflora) ginger juice tea, andrographis, motherwort, passionflower, cordyceps, rhodiola, please read the book for dosage and protocol. He doesn't really say what to do for chronic infections but there is enough info to begin trying things. Obviously try small and carefully and not 20 herbs at a time.

I began using rhodiola, schisandra, licorice, ashwagandha and eleuthero that I bought from an apothecary then made myself, a common formula for adrenal support, at one point. Some of these herbs are potent antivirals as well.

The advantages to using herbs:

1) They are complex foods, not concentrated single chemicals so they will not harm you like medicine, side effects are rare in comparison to meds, as long as you can tolerate them and use informed dosages.

2) They are multifaceted in their management of viruses, so they might, for example, cause death of the infected cell while blocking the virus's ability to produce signal chemicals and reducing its capacity for proliferation. Multiple whammies.

3) We evolved completely integrated with the plant world and derived some huge portion of our "human" chemicals from plants. I am sketchy on the details but just about all of our hormones, for example, were invented by plants first. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/human-neurotransmitters-in-plants/ We come from plants, (and before that our earliest ancestors are bacteria). Thus using plants to heal is not only non invasive but a reclaiming of our genetic heritage. It is no exaggeration to claim that humans are not actually separate entities from plants. Enculturation has created the artifice of the divide but it does not exist.

4) This is why gut bacteria and diet are ESSENTIAL to healing. You can't create seratonin without healthy gut bacteria. It's the bacteria that make it.

Our beloved Jared Younger has just come out in favor of CURCUMIN (turmeric) as the anti inflammatory of choice.

Learn about herbs and food. Change the environment you live in, it can be impossible to heal in an environment that facilitated your collapse (I rented a room in a seaside town for 18 months and there turned the corner). Use brain plasticity to heal your trauma, lots of free stuff here and it works: http://irenelyon.com/ and eventually the body will begin to heal itself.

Was pleased to see this on healthy gut bacteria today its not often talked about in this community:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/gut-microbiome-strike-it-rich-with-whole-grains/

 

[Tammy7]

Tammy, I am thrilled for you! Thank you for the update. I very much appreciate your sharing your protocol and that emotional detoxing occurs as well. As you know, I am following William's advice as well although I am only 3 1/2 months in. I have been having surges of anger and upwellings of tears at different times and I forgot that emotional release is part of the healing. Thank you for the reminder!

Please let me know if you need any guidance.................I have a lot of experience now with the protocol! Also I have listened to Anthony's radio shows for almost 2 years now and am part of the practitioners group. Have learned ALOT from the support groups also.

You can PM me with any questions or concerns you may have.

Tammy