Apple Cider Vinegar Reduces Dawn Phenomenon

[Remy]

As you all probably know, I've been eating a ketogenic (low carb) diet for about 9 months now...and my fasting and post-prandial (after eating) blood sugars are still way higher than they should be based on my diet.

So that means that my liver is making sugar if I'm not ingesting it from external sources. I googled this and found a lot of references to something called the Dawn Phenomenon on diabetes websites. Apparently this is a problem for many people.

Metformin (which I recently started) can help...and I've already noticed my fasting blood sugar has dropped about 10 points in just a few weeks. But it's still too high. The crazy thing is that the longer you go without eating...the more the liver pumps out the glucose and the higher and higher your BS climbs until you stop it by eating. I think this is where the idea for small, frequent meals may come from.

Some suggestions I found in asomewhat crazy but otherwise informative article are to:

1. Consume protein or resistant starch at bedtime. I tried this and no change.
2. Drink a couple alcoholic beverages at night because the liver will be so busy detoxing the alcohol that it won't have time to remember to pump out extra glucose (WTF?). It does say not to start drinking to solve Dawn Phenomenon but really?
3. Take 4-6 apple cider vinegar capsules at bedtime.

So I'm going to try option number 3 and see where it gets me. I love vinegar but even I can't see wanting to drink it at bedtime...

Anybody else take vinegar at bedtime??

 

[Tammy7]

The liver has stored glucose reserves for times of need so what is happening is it is releasing the glucose reserves in response to your low carb intake. Just my opinion but taking Metformin isn't a good solution.

 

[Tammy7]

As you all probably know, I've been eating a ketogenic (low carb) diet for about 9 months now...and my fasting and post-prandial (after eating) blood sugars are still way higher than they should be based on my diet.

I'm not trying to be snarky (truly) but in another post you said that this type of diet would help regulate your blood sugar better?

 

[Remy]

I'm not trying to be snarky (truly) but in another post you said that this type of diet would help regulate your blood sugar better?

The ketogenic diet has been great for helping my blood sugar levels. My numbers are way down. But I want optimal so I'm not settling for ok.

I have reached the end of what diet can do when my body is producing glucose because of overproduction of other hormones like cortisol, epinephrine and igf1.

There's no harm in trying Metformin or ACV and it doesn't negate the benefits of a ketogenic diet at all. If you have blood sugar issues, a ketogenic diet is the only sensible place to start.

 

[bobby]

@Remy this is so interesting! So am I understanding this right, that the ketogenic diet regulates your blood sugar but other aspects of ME/CFS are simultaneously causing a counterbalance to that effect?

 

[Remy]

The liver has stored glucose reserves for times of need so what is happening is it is releasing the glucose reserves in response to your low carb intake. Just my opinion but taking Metformin isn't a good solution.

Then what was the explanation for my even higher high blood sugar and massive weight gain pre-low carb? It sure wasn't lack of carbs.

Low carb has helped a lot, as much with increased energy as with weight loss (which has admittedly been slow due to other hormonal factors). I expect Metformin will help even more because blocking gluconeogenesis is what it does (in part).

 

[Remy]

@Remy this is so interesting! So am I understanding this right, that the ketogenic diet regulates your blood sugar but other aspects of ME/CFS are simultaneously causing a counterbalance to that effect?

The ketotic diet reduces insulin which will cause a steadier blood sugar than the up and down glucose insulin roller coaster.

For a lot of people, this may be enough all alone.

But hormones still play a role in gluconeogenesis. For whatever reason, my autonomic system is faulty and my hormones are whack. There's only so much a diet can do if my liver is pumping out glucose in excess of my actual needs due to other factors than diet.

 

[bobby]

@Remy I'm wondering if this is linked to what Naviaux was saying, about our bodies always wanting to go back to the hypometabolic state. This could explain why your body is counteracting in a way. (Or maybe I'm wrong, it's just a thought, not read enough on this!)

 

[Remy]

@Remy I'm wondering if this is linked to what Naviaux was saying, about our bodies always wanting to go back to the hypometabolic state. This could explain why your body is counteracting in a way. (Or maybe I'm wrong, it's just a thought, not read enough on this!)

I think in my case it's a result of the GAD65 autoantibodies that screw with the pancreas and nervous system. And thankfully not everyone with MECFS will have those.

 

[Cort]

W

As you all probably know, I've been eating a ketogenic (low carb) diet for about 9 months now...and my fasting and post-prandial (after eating) blood sugars are still way higher than they should be based on my diet.

So that means that my liver is making sugar if I'm not ingesting it from external sources. I googled this and found a lot of references to something called the Dawn Phenomenon on diabetes websites. Apparently this is a problem for many people.

Metformin (which I recently started) can help...and I've already noticed my fasting blood sugar has dropped about 10 points in just a few weeks. But it's still too high. The crazy thing is that the longer you go without eating...the more the liver pumps out the glucose and the higher and higher your BS climbs until you stop it by eating. I think this is where the idea for small, frequent meals may come from.

Some suggestions I found in asomewhat crazy but otherwise informative article are to:

1. Consume protein or resistant starch at bedtime. I tried this and no change.
2. Drink a couple alcoholic beverages at night because the liver will be so busy detoxing the alcohol that it won't have time to remember to pump out extra glucose (WTF?). It does say not to start drinking to solve Dawn Phenomenon but really?
3. Take 4-6 apple cider vinegar capsules at bedtime.

So I'm going to try option number 3 and see where it gets me. I love vinegar but even I can't see wanting to drink it at bedtime...

Anybody else take vinegar at bedtime??

Wow - drink alcoholic beverages at night - that's a new one!

I've never tried apple cider at night but I thought it did surprisingly well for me...I stopped it when I started getting nauseous a lot but I now think that was because of something else and I'm going to give it a shot. I will try it at bedtime and report back.

 

[San Diego]

Not sure if this is relevant, but once upon a time when I saw a mito doc, they suggested cornstarch at bedtime. I can’t remember exactly why, but it’s apparently the best “food” for prolonging the time before the body enters fasting state.

My latest non-fasting glucose was down to 80, whereas it had been around 105 for years. It will be interesting to see what my fasting numbers are, if I don’t pass out from low blood sugar and lack of my morning fat bolus lol.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

Corn Starch also called Corn Flour is also used in Hereditary Fructose Intolerance in fact in Hospital settings with (HFI) patients it is also used as one treatment with Glucose infusions as well...I do not think Vinegar should be used I think but not sure is on the No list of (HFI)...I think there is a link to (HFI) in this illness I have seen it in EDS patients Positives...A Ketogenic diet does make sense Meat is highly the (HFI) choice of foods but 100% fruits are out plus countless foods even some vegs...Also remember low carbs diet makes sense here's why? Wheat is a Fructan plus most breads pasta cakes contain sucrose fructose even store bubble gum has sorbitol...Pure Glucose/Dextrose powder is safe but avoid any foods containing sugars isd out so is Honey...Eat Bread with no sugar added Milk is ok no sugar like chocolate milk plus make sure you are not lactose intolerant if you are not then cheese is ok & dairy but check it could set you back...Numerous foods today contain fructose & most is actually Synthetic garbage produced in Japan during the Reagan Administration...I now believe I have (HFI) undiagnosed I will post once I get tested...Boston University HFI Lab does the test in USA they also have a website as well plus links to diets...Google hereditary fructose intolerance a Paper I think dec 2015 Published it has the diet on there foods to avoid etc etc...Adolase B genetic test or liver biopsy...Bacon plus sandwich meats contain sucrose/flavorings so do not eat them at all...Some Pork has additives, salami, pepperoni etc.

 

[ShyestofFlies]

I've seen at least one company produce an apple cider vinegar drink- but it might have stuff in it you don't want to do (I think it has honey in it). Still the principal of making your own mix could be a possibility. I've heard ACV recomended for a variety of health conditions, one being acid reflux. Never tried it myself since I struggle w/vinegar flavor wise.

When I used to be able to cook, I remember that ACV is useful for adding moisture during baking- but I think it can mask some of the sweetness in these as well. It also works great to flavor sauces for food dishes and I think has some type of preservative quality to it- but I don't know for sure on that last bit. My mom tried the drink and said she could only do a sip or two a day.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

I've seen at least one company produce an apple cider vinegar drink- but it might have stuff in it you don't want to do (I think it has honey in it). Still the principal of making your own mix could be a possibility. I've heard ACV recomended for a variety of health conditions, one being acid reflux. Never tried it myself since I struggle w/vinegar flavor wise.

When I used to be able to cook, I remember that ACV is useful for adding moisture during baking- but I think it can mask some of the sweetness in these as well. It also works great to flavor sauces for food dishes and I think has some type of preservative quality to it- but I don't know for sure on that last bit. My mom tried the drink and said she could only do a sip or two a day.

Pure Dextrose is supposed to be good I avoid Vinegar any form plus I now consume Corn Flour/Starch its suppose to be good both in Hereditary Fructose Intolerance (HFI) if this is part of what is going on with us...I know people test Positives but not sure what percentage have it now...It is in EDS which I believe is just another label name for CFS Fibro so called Lymies...

 

[ShyestofFlies]

Pure Glucose/Dextrose is suppose to be good I avoid Vinegar any form plus I now consume Corn Flour/Starch its suppose to be good both in Hereditary Fructose Intolerance (HFI) if this is part of what is going on with us...I know people test Positives but not sure what percentage have it now...Its in EDS which I believe is just another label name for CFS Fibro so called Lymies...

My girlfriend has EDS and while there is some overlap, there is no way that it is the same disease (at least not hyper-mobility type). It's certainly possible for someone to have both.

 

[Aidan Walsh]

My girlfriend has EDS and while there is some overlap, there is no way that it is the same disease (at least not hyper-mobility type). It's certainly possible for someone to have both.

*Quote from Dr Rodney Grahame Hypermobility Unit London & the Royal National Orthopedic Hospital (RNOH) at Stanmore UK 95% of patients diagnosed with CFS Fibro have 'undiagnosed' Ehlers Danlos

Syndrome types he alsodoes not believe in M.E. as a diagnosis he knows its EDS Types...He is tops in the World on connective tissue disorders no-one is better than him...I have not seen any patient thus far who

was diagnosed CFS go there & they get a new diagnosis of EDS the most common is Hypermobility but some have what they call overlaps they have 2 type some with additional Classic or they have Vascular

VEDS type with Hypermobility...30% of Hypermobility type have Vascular EDS even after get initial diagnosis of Hypermobility some take 2 more years to be told they also have the Vascular VEDS Type

through Genetic testing plus I also see some Positive for the (HFI) Hereditary Fructose Intolerance...Some are even told they have Histamine Intolerance with Fructose Malabasorption (FM) but further genetic tests

show they actually have (HFI) instead...It is also dangerous to have a (FM) test if one has undiagnosed (HFI) The term CFS should be squashed completely so should M.E. these are no doubts Genetic

connective tissue disorders which people are Born with from their Parents...There is also a strong link that Patients have been Poisoned by Antibiotics that actually attack connective tissue with Genetic traits

www.floxiehope.com Countless 'thousands' of Lawsuits have already been filed & Yes numerous amounts Paid for damages in the ranges of about $1.85 Million US Dollars plus Class Action Suits have also been filed

 

[ankaa]

Then what was the explanation for my even higher high blood sugar and massive weight gain pre-low carb? It sure wasn't lack of carbs.

Low carb has helped a lot, as much with increased energy as with weight loss (which has admittedly been slow due to other hormonal factors). I expect Metformin will help even more because blocking gluconeogenesis is what it does (in part).

does metformin help cognition (indirectly, by regulating sugar/glucose)?

does low carb help w pain?

how do you define "low carb" ... e.g., <50 grams of carbs per day? 50-70 grams of carbs per day?

 

[ankaa]

There's no harm in trying Metformin or ACV and it doesn't negate the benefits of a ketogenic diet at all. If you have blood sugar issues, a ketogenic diet is the only sensible place to start.

do you think malic acid could have the same effect as the ACV? from what I understand, malic acid in ACV is the key ingredient... thanks.

 

[Wayne]

Couple things to add to the discussion:

1) I recently read a very interesting article on benfotiamine (fat-soluble Vit. B-1). Here's a link:

Protecting Against Glycation and High Blood Sugar with Benfotiamine

Here's an introduction:

For decades, European doctors have prescribed diabetic patients a fat-soluble form of vitamin B1 called benfotiamine to treat neuropathies and help prevent complications such as blindness, kidney failure, heart attack, and limb amputation.

Benfotiamine blocks destructive biochemical pathways that enable high blood sugar levels to damage nerves and small blood vessels.

Benfotiamine also inhibits the formation of advanced glycation end products in both diabetic and normal aging organisms. Glycation not only causes kidney, nerve, and retinal damage in diabetics, but is also a significant contributory factor in cardiovascular disease and other aging disorders in adults without diabetes.1-6

Here, we’ll explore how to use benfotiamine to help protect against the dangers of elevated blood sugar and toxic glycation reactions.
.......................................

It wasn't clear to me whether benfotiamine actually affected blood sugar levels, or only protected against the effects of high blood sugar levels. I did start taking it, but haven't done so regularly, so don't know how effective is might be for me.

What I have noticed is that when I take regular (water-soluble) thiamine (B-1), it helps me sleep better at night. My wife has noticed the same, and we've both gotten into the habit of taking it just before bedtime. Not only does it help with sleep, but I would assume counteracts most of the effects of glycation that is discussed fairly extensively in the linked article.

Just realized I forgot number 2) (the second thing I was going to add to the discussion).

 

[Wayne]

This was labeled a "Metaformin" herbal alternative: Lists for $7.91 on Amazon.
A look at the ingredients might give some more ideas on controlling blood sugar levels, like cinnamon, etc.