How to Successfully Navigate Through Chronic Illness

Cmt12

Active Member
Here is some of what I have learned over the past decade or so from dealing with ME/chronic pain. Hopefully, it’s helpful.


-The human response to pain is initially pragmatic. We are less concerned about having a complete understanding of causality, and more concerned about alleviating the pain as quickly as possible. As pain becomes chronic, we begin to focus more on understanding causality.


-We prefer an empirical, scientific based explanation for pain, but if that is unavailable, we rely on the intellect to intuit/deduce a causal explanation.


THE LIMITATIONS OF THE INTELLECT


-We have an evolutionarily adapted impulse to prioritize acting quickly over acting accurately when confronted by the potential for danger. This impulse hijacks the intellect at a subconscious level for the sake of speed. Pain is associated with insecurity; insecurity is associated with chaos; chaos is associated with danger. Therefore, the way we form beliefs in the face of potential danger — subconsciously and prioritizing speed over accuracy — is often how we form beliefs about pain causality.


-Our beliefs fight for themselves. We can and often do endlessly rationalize our current belief since the dissolution of our belief thrusts us into the unknown, into chaos and insecurity. To our protective mechanism, a held belief represents order, security, and resolution. To this protective mechanism, the sensation of order represents truth; its aim is to move away from chaos and toward order in the immediate. It does not concern itself about the future. In other words, this mechanism does not aim at curing chronic pain, but rather it seeks to avoid chaos by preserving the sensation of order. It does not care if our held belief is accurate or effective with regard to our desire to cure our chronic condition, only that the belief is preserved.


THE CONSCIENCE AS ARBITER OF TRUTH

-When it comes to the unknown, the conscience is the only reliable indicator of truth, but in terms of accessibility, it is second in line to the intellect. It’s also vague and plays hard to get; it has to be pursued.


-Our attitude toward life is correlated with our attitude toward our conscience: at one end of the spectrum our conscience is an oppressive dictator, and at the other end, it is a trusted guide.


-Chronic pain pushes us toward assigning a negative meaning toward life, which causes us to avoid our conscience, which distances ourselves from truth.


THE WILL


-The will appears when we find ourselves in a place we don’t want to be (ie: pain).


-The will is the method of escaping the initial dead end of intellectual rationalization and moving toward the conscience.


-The will is maximized by simultaneously holding the sensations of where we are trying to get away from (pain) and where we seek to go. Holding contradicting aims creates tension and the higher the level of sensations that we can hold, the more of the will is made available to us.


PRACTICAL ADVICE


-The objective is to first access the will at the maximum level and then to use the will to guide us toward our conscience.


-A useful first step is to observe our attitude toward life. Our actions speak louder than our thoughts in this regard. We might tell ourselves that we don’t carry a nihilistic worldview around with us, but how we interact or orientate ourselves might contradict that. Affirmations are of little to no use to us in this exercise - we cannot fake this. We have to put forth the sustained effort that is required for truth.


-Question one: Is there anything redemptive about life or is it just continual suffering? This is a useful first aim for the will. Put life to the test. Again, this isn’t an intellectual process. I compare it to staring at those 3D art pieces. We can’t make snap judgments about what we think the answer should be, but instead keep looking deeper into it until the answer is revealed.


-Question two: Is there anything redemptive about pain? Only once question one is answered in the affirmative should we attempt to take on this question due to its difficulty. Start with something easier like the pain we experience during exercise. Then, perhaps move on to contemplating the growth we’ve experienced as a result of a breakup. Finally, move on to abstracting these patterns and principals and applying them to your current situation with chronic pain.


-The above exercises should help to better our relationship with our conscience, since again, as we find positive meaning and redemption in life, our conscience becomes more of a trusted guide to us.


-Next we can begin to bring our awareness to the sensation of our symptoms/pain in order to maximize the will. We should seek to gradually increase the amount that we can sustainably hold, building our will over time.


-We will inevitably fall into the trap of the intellectual solution and lose ourselves for periods of time. When we begin to sober up and doubt presents itself, we should be courageous enough to grab hold of the sensations of negative emotion and re-access the will.



I’m going to stop here because this is getting lengthy. To summarize, there are two truths that we are torn between. The first truth is subconsciously driven. It’s quick, impulsive, manipulative, and short sighted. This truth hijacks our intellect and can’t solve our problem of understanding the causality of chronic illness because it does not care about that. It only wants order; long term effectiveness is irrelevant. The second truth, the truth of the conscience, is what we want. We have to access and use the will to guide us toward this truth. We have to sacrifice for this truth, and be willing to endure uncertainty, chaos, insecurity, and the pain of loss and regret. We have to be willing to be judged for this truth. The alternative is the status quo.
 

Cmt12

Active Member
If anyone is able to do the exercises posted above and can feel that they are *potentially moving in the right direction, post here and let me know. Otherwise, it will be pointless and counterproductive for me to continue on.

*This process works in defiance of the intellect, or what rationally makes sense, which is why “potentially moving in the right direction” is the best we can hope for. We have to intuitively feel our way through it. Again, the conscience is a guide. If we can simply use our intellect to intuit/deduce ourselves to the solution, then we wouldn’t need a guide. Continuing to rely on the intellect (either our own or an authority figure) is a continuation of the status quo. Each of us has to make that choice and take that risk themselves though.
 

Cmt12

Active Member
I’ve noticed that I haven’t been banned or put on probation for discussing psychology, so I’m going to add a bit more with the hope that I’m not pushing this out too far from the familiar. That’s not to say that I think that the chronic illnesses on this forum are only psychological — I’ve been in a state of constant physical pain for the past decade — but to insist that psychology is irrelevant to the revealing of chronic illness, meaning the understanding of the root cause of any and all chronic illnesses, is a serious mistake. It’s understandable, and approaching the problem as if it’s simply a physical issue is where we all start, but to get beyond symptom management means going deeper.

It’s a personal decision to determine if symptom management, and the quality of life that it provides, is good enough. It was not good enough for me and my sense is that anyone who has been dealing with chronic symptoms for years often feels the same.

MAPPING THE PSYCHE

-When interacting with reality, the path of least resistance and our preferred state is the unconscious state in which all of our automatic programming/thinking is proceeding with no hiccups. In this state, we are operating in the lower truth driven by our evolutionarily adapted impulses for security, status, survival, sex, etc. Any disruption or resistance is a source of pain. Pain brings forth the Will. The Will causes self consciousness and takes us out of this first category.


-The second category of the psyche is the mixed state of self consciousness and service to lower truth. This is where people with chronic illness operate from currently. In this state, we begin to become aware of our thinking, bringing our consciousness in to discriminate, organize, and build our thoughts. The doctors/experts who form similar beliefs or introduce ideas that make sense to us intellectually are the ones we deem to be the most accurate, so then we adopt their treatment strategy. Still, all of this intellectual activity is operating on top of the subconsciously operating, unknown, and biased lower truth programming below the stage and below the spotlight of our awareness.

Once we begin the treatment, our drive for security and comfort rewards us for escaping uncertainty by blanketing us with positive emotional reinforcement (which we of course attribute to the treatment), and the honeymoon period begins. This sends us back to the first category of unconsciousness and for a brief time all is right with our world. Eventually, the effects wear off, frustration sets in, the Will/self consciousness returns, and we are back in this second category. At this point, we have to decide if we are going to up the intensity of the current treatment strategy or use our intellect to navigate toward a new one, repeating the same pattern.


-The third category, or third psychological mindset that we can operate from is the one I have been proposing in this thread. It is the place where we can aim toward the higher truth - the truth that desires for our long term, sustained well being, in opposition to the underlying, shallow impulses that drive the first two categories.

The only way to get to and sustain this mindset is to consciously and deliberately maximize the Will. By maximizing the Will, we elevate the Will above the influences and desires of the lower truth processes. Those impulses still operate — we are still aware of that voice in our head telling us we need to find relief for our symptoms quickly — but we are no longer compelled to obey or be controlled by them. It is a state of mindfulness, but not the type of mindfulness that seeks to escape pain. Rather, it’s a type of mindfulness that seeks the highest truth and is solidly rooted in the power of the Will. It is a state of extreme self consciousness which is uncomfortable but necessary in order to turn inward where the pain is located and must be met.

Again, the Will is a reaction to pain, so to maximize the Will means bringing our awareness/focus to our unwanted negative sensations. When we do this, when we resist the lower impulses, maximize the Will, and surface the underlying impulses by incrementally bringing our attention to them, then those impulses become integrated within our consciousness, no longer controlling us. It is making the unknown known, making the unconscious conscious, bringing darkness to light, eliminating bias. It’s how the Will clears the path toward our conscience, gradually unlocking intelligence along the way.

The first category of the psyche is mostly unconscious, the second is mostly intellectual, and the third is mostly intuitive. We don’t get from the second to the third by thinking about it. It is a reaction of the Will to repeated failure. In those times of darkness and existential crisis that we find ourselves in dealing with chronic pain is a chance to access the lifeline that will guide us to where we need to go for resolution. That lifeline is the maximized Will. Sense the moment, answer the call, and begin the hero’s journey.
 

Not dead yet!

Well-Known Member
I got as far as where you talk about the will moving us toward the "conscience" but I am not sure you're using the word conscience the way I would. My definition of that is, an intrinsic moral guide, partly nature, partly nurture. Conscience would be what torments me if I've done something wrong.

The first category of the psyche is mostly unconscious, the second is mostly intellectual, and the third is mostly intuitive. We don’t get from the second to the third by thinking about it. It is a reaction of the Will to repeated failure. In those times of darkness and existential crisis that we find ourselves in dealing with chronic pain is a chance to access the lifeline that will guide us to where we need to go for resolution. That lifeline is the maximized Will. Sense the moment, answer the call, and begin the hero’s journey.
Not sure what you mean by Hero's Journey. I capitalize it because I use it to mean the basis of the Monomyth and the formal structure of Shamanism, possibly Shamanic healing. Overall what you wrote seems to suggest that people should regard the intellect (logic) with suspicion. (By extension, regard science with suspicion.) I don't. I regard it as part of a coin. Often when there is a shamanic solution, there is later, a revelation of how the solution is logical after all.

I don't see why you'd be banned for that, unless you're saying that we can think our way out of pain. Actually even that isn't a bad thing to say. What would be bad is to say it's the only valid way out of pain and that it would work for everyone if they only "thought correctly" about it. At that point we get into victim blaming.

Mostly I don't know what you mean. On a practical level, what are you suggesting? Even a shamanic ritual has steps.
 
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Cmt12

Active Member
I got as far as where you talk about the will moving us toward the "conscience" but I am not sure you're using the word conscience the way I would. My definition of that is, an intrinsic moral guide, partly nature, partly nurture. Conscience would be what torments me if I've done something wrong.
Yeah, the conscience is that feeling of weakness we feel when we error. I don’t consider the articulated interpretation, the voice that occurs in our head, to be part of the conscience, only that feeling. The positive side of the conscience is that deep feeling of meaning or connection when things seem to align perfectly, and you may get a feeling of expansion or awe. It’s a change of consciousness.

The problem is that it is impossible to always be able to distinguish between a subtle positive response from the conscience and a positive emotional response from our other desires which have different aims than our conscience. The solution is to instead look for unwanted impulses that are controlling our thinking, beliefs, and actions. We may not be able to know if following that feeling of hope and optimism is in our best interest, but we can know that identifying and resisting a feeling/impulse of insecurity or desperation is definitely not of our conscience.

If you don’t yet realize that these negative sensations of anger, insecurity, discomfort, etc lead us to unoptimal outcomes, then watch yourself and look for these patterns. Look for the negative judgment, that hangover effect, that the conscience hits us with after we act on these impulsive emotions. Then, follow through and correct the errors by maximizing the Will and imposing it on yourself to correct your actions. This is the only way to be able to get to the bottom of understanding chronic illness. Otherwise, we will be deceived and put our hope in things that won’t deliver.
 

Not dead yet!

Well-Known Member
If you don’t yet realize that these negative sensations of anger, insecurity, discomfort, etc lead us to unoptimal outcomes, then watch yourself and look for these patterns. Look for the negative judgment, that hangover effect, that the conscience hits us with after we act on these impulsive emotions. Then, follow through and correct the errors by maximizing the Will and imposing it on yourself to correct your actions. This is the only way to be able to get to the bottom of understanding chronic illness. Otherwise, we will be deceived and put our hope in things that won’t deliver.
Yeah now we're getting into a sticky area.

* The phrasing, "If you don't yet realize..." This s a forum where strangers with one characteristic in common, discuss that characteristic..Our level of philosophical enlightenment is a cross section. And there is no value judgement in being on any part of that spectrum, at least not to ME/CFS as a disease. So let's take each in turn:

Anger - most people have figured out that expressing anger leads to negative results most of the time, with the exception of venting to a trusted friend. However, the feeling of anger, when observed can show me what is threatening to me, it can be a signal that I need to prepare for something.
Insecurity - This has a lot of meanings, social insecurity that leads to shyness, a lack of material security because of poverty, a lack of physical security because of a nearby violent person, etc. I'd have to know what type of insecurity you mean. Because for the most part, this also can be a signal that I need to prepare for something.​
Discomfort - If discomfort didn't lead to a change in circumstances then it isn't doing its job. There is no "right thing to do" when discomfort about pain, and other symptoms, collides with discomfort about a dietary change, coupled with discomfort about possibly needing disability insurance because there is no universally-credible medical help, etc. We're still back atMaslow's hierarchy of needs.

* The construction "This is the only way to..." should've raised a red flag, to you, when you wrote it.

In a normal illness, that is, one with a gold-standard diagnosis, and a drug, surgery, or physical therapy solution, no amount of will is needed or desired. Some amount of adjustment is needed for the person undergoing treatment, but otherwise it's straightforward.

In ME/CFS we're mired in a fairly lengthy history of abandonment by the medical establishment. For whatever reason, they think it's ok to leave us to sleep in a reverse circadian manner, have difficulty breathing, have no energy to carry out even simple tasks, and a considerable amount of pain. I am thankful that pain medication at least works for me, because from most of the reports I've heard, if I did have FM (someone claimed I did), one of the signs would be a lack of effectiveness in pain control.

At the moment, there are fairly vast resources available on this website and with a bit of travel for self-help on a physical level. It's expensive and not all methods work for all people. Although there is considerable evidence that ART therapy works for ME/CFS too, it can be hard to get, not to mention expensive.

There is of course the emotional aspect of sickness too. I have assumptions that I can't do this or that thing. Most of the time, when I was sick as a child, my mom would say "In a few days you'll be back to doing everything you always do, so rest now." This thought is hard to have as an adult if the illness you have is apparently endless. It's part of the loss of security / safety.

I would welcome another path to lessening pain, anyone would. But at the moment you're phrasing it as if it's the ONLY way. Revelations hardly work that way. Even if it was true, the result of the revelation would include the sting of resentment toward you, for the same reason that we resented it when parents micromanaged our lives as kids. Our parents might have been right, but they didn't have to rub it in our face that we were young and stupid. People will avoid it simply because even success would feel like a personal failure.

At the pain center where I go (I've been a pain patient for 11 years now), they have a multimodal approach. One of them is psychology. What that amounted to, so far, is a meditation, recorded by the instructor at the time of the treatment. A key aspect of the meditation was finding a comfortable position. This is incredibly hard for a person with pain issues to do. This pain-distraction had effectively turned off my ability to find that relaxed at-peace meditative state. I didn't even know that the problem was the pain-noise in my head until I went to see this psychologist. He's a dear old hippie from "way back." We had a good chat too.

I think psychology can help people, I just dislike false limits on what I can do.

Yeah, the conscience is that feeling of weakness we feel when we error. I don’t consider the articulated interpretation, the voice that occurs in our head, to be part of the conscience, only that feeling. The positive side of the conscience is that deep feeling of meaning or connection when things seem to align perfectly, and you may get a feeling of expansion or awe. It’s a change of consciousness.
I kind of responded backward. This is the first paragraph in the post. I am not sure what current psychology says about the ID, Ego and Superego, but what you're saying sounds like some form of it. As a person who considers herself "spiritual" I have a strong desire to identify what my Superego wants me to do. I'm not sure if that's the same as you're suggesting. But it is indeed a difficult process.
 
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Cmt12

Active Member
Yeah now we're getting into a sticky area.
Yeah, we are currently unable to communicate productively. In the future, if you find yourself in a state of determination and desire, consider coming back to this thread and rereading my posts.
 
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Cmt12

Active Member
WHICH MINDSET IS TRUE?

Mindset A:
-Unconsciousness (lack of self consciousness) and pain avoidance are key features
-Little sense of urgency
-Believes there is no cure currently
-Satisfied with preserving status quo or marginal improvement
-Puts faith in research and external authority figures
-Constantly seeking escape from symptom awareness
-Settles in and makes the best of the situation

Mindset B:
-Hyper awareness and self consciousness are key features
-Burning desire for cure
-The time and quality of life being lost to Chronic Illness are completely unacceptable
-Believes that a cure is currently possible somehow
-Symptom management is not good enough
-Willingness to take risks and make significant sacrifices
-Takes full responsibility

Both of these mindsets cannot be true. Mindset A is where we are continuously being pulled to, the path of least resistance. Mindset B is rare and where we find ourselves when we are in the most pain and discomfort. Mindset A is comfortable, while B is a huge burden. Which one is true though? If B is true, what is the potential cost of operating from mindset A almost all of the time? IMO it is very important to genuinely contemplate this at various times throughout the journey.

Edit:
I forgot an important point:
Mindset A makes (materialistic) assumptions about causality of Chronic Illness
Mindset B questions all assumptions, leaves all possibilities open
 
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Abrin

Well-Known Member
I’m going to stop here because this is getting lengthy. To summarize, there are two truths that we are torn between. The first truth is subconsciously driven. It’s quick, impulsive, manipulative, and short sighted. This truth hijacks our intellect and can’t solve our problem of understanding the causality of chronic illness because it does not care about that. It only wants order; long term effectiveness is irrelevant. The second truth, the truth of the conscience, is what we want. We have to access and use the will to guide us toward this truth. We have to sacrifice for this truth, and be willing to endure uncertainty, chaos, insecurity, and the pain of loss and regret. We have to be willing to be judged for this truth. The alternative is the status quo.
The concept of 'truth' is actually a moral judgement when you attach it to the concept of human perception.

Something can be 'True' in the sense of Boolean logic or a scientific fact but when it comes to 'truth' that is a morality judgement that is being based on the individual.

The problem with morality judgements is you are making the false assumption that your brain gives rise to the exact same subjective experiences of the mind and of the world in the exact same way as everyone else.

The hard problem of consciousness is hard. :)
 
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Cmt12

Active Member
The concept of 'truth' is actually a moral judgement when you attach it to the concept of human perception.

Something can be 'True' in the sense of Boolean logic or a scientific fact but when it comes to 'truth' that is a morality judgement that is being based on the individual.

The problem with morality judgements is you are making the false assumption that your brain gives rise to the exact same subjective experiences of the mind and of the world in the exact same way as everyone else.

The hard problem of consciousness is hard. :)
This is good. You have a sophisticated understanding about the difference between a scientific fact and a moral truth, which can be thought of ‘how best to act’. I tried to address this earlier when I was describing the difference between the two ‘truths’ of how to act with chronic illness below:
To summarize, there are two truths that we are torn between. The first truth is subconsciously driven. It’s quick, impulsive, manipulative, and short sighted. This truth hijacks our intellect and can’t solve our problem of understanding the causality of chronic illness because it does not care about that. It only wants order; long term effectiveness is irrelevant. The second truth, the truth of the conscience, is what we want. We have to access and use the will to guide us toward this truth. We have to sacrifice for this truth, and be willing to endure uncertainty, chaos, insecurity, and the pain of loss and regret. We have to be willing to be judged for this truth. The alternative is the status quo.
On this point
The problem with morality judgements is you are making the false assumption that your brain gives rise to the exact same subjective experiences of the mind and of the world in the exact same way as everyone else.
I am claiming that we have universally shared experiences and universally shared moral laws. One such claim would be that suffering is universally bad.

The reason why I think it’s important to abstract and operate on the philosophical level is so that we can act in ways that are consistent across time. Why? Because acting truthfully across time will lead to better results for us. That again begs the question of how do we know what is the highest truth, or what is most true. In this thread, I am making the claim that the truth of the conscience is the highest truth, so that is from where our actions should be guided. I am not trying to make an argument, since this idea cannot be communicated intellectually, but instead I am attempting to describe the process of how to reconnect with the conscience so that what I am saying can be verified through subjective experience.
 

Abrin

Well-Known Member
I am claiming that we have universally shared experiences and universally shared moral laws. One such claim would be that suffering is universally bad.
Indeed you are.

My claim on the other hand is that neuroscience shows us that we don't actually have universally shared experiences and universally shared moral laws.

I also claim that when you attach the concept of 'bad' onto the concept of suffering you are now falling into the trap of attaching a personal moral judgement onto a subjective human experience again.

The moral judgement of whether that experiencce is 'good' or 'bad' is up to the individual.

Suffering is just suffering, it isn't personal.

Disease is just disease, it isn't personal.

It is nothing more or nothing less than that until we define it with our own brand of personal morality.

Just in case you are wondering, I am not trying to start an argument either. We are two different people with two different subjective experiences. Since I don't believe in a universal truth that means that we can both be right in the conversation and that we both can be wrong in this conversation at the same time. :)
 

Cmt12

Active Member
So far, I’ve tried to communicate in a matter-of-fact, no nonsense, uncompromising perspective because that is the perspective of the Will, and our willpower is necessary to connect with our conscience, which is necessary for truth. Communicating a message of extreme relativism, while being much more palatable, would be counterproductive in the long run. With that said, I realize that the more we are disconnected from our conscience, the more averse we are going to be to the absolutes of the Will and of the conscience.

So what exactly am I saying? I’m saying I get it that most people with chronic illness are going to have a negative emotional reaction to these posts. I have enough experience to confirm that definitively. To attempt to counter that fact, I am trying to provide as much detail as I can to the process. So I want to zoom out and talk about the process more universally now.


THE QUEST FOR MEANING

-Much of childhood is about exploration. When exploring the world, experiences of wonder and awe happen; this is the call of the conscience toward meaning, or toward “life”. We automatically form beliefs about these meaningful experiences, specifically about our desire and our capability to pursue them.

-In our pursuit, we experience resistance or obstacles to the attainment of what we desire. This resistance is an anomaly to our originally held belief that we are entitled and capable of achieving our desire. The result is chaos. The chaos acts as a “trauma”, or as an injury to our belief.

-As a result, our survival mechanism, which seeks to guide us away from chaos or potential death, begins to work against our desire to successfully complete our quest for meaning. In other words, our survival mechanism starts to work against our conscience.

-Gradually, we begin to drift away from our conscience and disengage from meaning in the name of safety and security. Pain avoidance gets prioritized over meaning. Our worldview becomes more nihilistic, more materialistic and less idealistic.


HEALING OURSELVES AND RECONNECTING WITH THE CONSCIENCE

-All forms of chronic pain and suffering have this effect. Instead of the mindset of wonder, aspiration, risk, responsibility, and determination, our mindset becomes one of avoidance, preservation, disengagement, and anxiety.

-In order to fix this, it is necessary that we confront, absorb, and integrate the past injuries. Turn the chaos into order.

-If we are operating from a pain avoidance mindset, how can we do this? We can’t, but fortunately, the presence of pain means the presence of the Will, which is our lifeline. We have to Will ourselves to remember those experiences we had of limitlessness and meaning, and we have to faithfully take on that mindset in the moment. In other words, we have to reach out to the conscience. By doing so, we are affirming that life is meaningful.

In the midst of suffering — our own and that which we see regularly around us — we each have to make the decision of which is more real, which is more true. It cannot be an intellectual analysis because, due to our “trauma” injuries, our survival mechanism has taken over our mindset. We have to remember the feeling of meaning intuitively. And we have to be courageous enough to again and again choose life, to choose optimism over practicality, to choose faith over rationality.

Once we make that choice, then we should maximize our Will in that direction. That direction will be in engagement of resistance, chaos, and pain. Instead of trying to escape the darkness, we engage and bring the darkness to light. In doing so, we overcome and integrate it.

Chronic illness is physical, but it can only be confronted through the psyche, through truth, through meaning, through the conscience, and through the Will. It is a long, and arduous journey, but one which we are universally capable of completing.
 

Abrin

Well-Known Member
So far, I’ve tried to communicate in a matter-of-fact, no nonsense, uncompromising perspective because that is the perspective of the Will, and our willpower is necessary to connect with our conscience, which is necessary for truth. Communicating a message of extreme relativism, while being much more palatable, would be counterproductive in the long run. With that said, I realize that the more we are disconnected from our conscience, the more averse we are going to be to the absolutes of the Will and of the conscience.
I find it interesting that you say things like 'our willpower' and 'we are disconnected from our conscience'. While these things may very much apply to you what makes you so sure they apply to everyone else around you?
 

Cmt12

Active Member
My claim on the other hand is that neuroscience shows us that we don't actually have universally shared experiences and universally shared moral laws.
I would say that you are filtering observations of brain activity through a lens of presupposed ideas about the mind-brain connection and about causality.
 

Abrin

Well-Known Member
So what exactly am I saying? I’m saying I get it that most people with chronic illness are going to have a negative emotional reaction to these posts. I have enough experience to confirm that definitively. To attempt to counter that fact, I am trying to provide as much detail as I can to the process. So I want to zoom out and talk about the process more universally now.
Honest question....do you believe that I am having a negative emotional reaction to your post?
 

Abrin

Well-Known Member
I would say that you are filtering observations of brain activity through a lens of presupposed ideas about the mind-brain connection and about causality.
Interesting. I could say the exact same thing about you currently. :)
 

Cmt12

Active Member
Interesting. I could say the exact same thing about you currently. :)
So my claim about moral truths is that they are realizations from the conscience by participating in the process that I’ve tried to describe in this thread. This wasn’t a preconceived idea I had; it was a discovery through personal experience.

Before that, if someone asked me how we can understand morality, I probably thought it had to be reasoned, or maybe I was more of a moral relativist like yourself. I don’t remember how articulated my views were on it.
 

Abrin

Well-Known Member
To attempt to counter that fact, I am trying to provide as much detail as I can to the process. So I want to zoom out and talk about the process more universally now.
Now I am curious, according to psychology confirmation bias says that no matter how many facts you present that people won't be able to hear you. So therefore your attempt to counter a negative emotional reaction in this way wouldn't work.
 

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