'NAD: The Biological Rocket Fuel that Gives You Energy'

Discussion in 'General' started by Remy, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Remy

    Remy Administrator

    NAD deficiency has long been implicated in numerous chronic inflammatory diseases. It's even being used successfully in drug rehabilitation programs now to ease withdrawal symptoms.

    It kind of seems like a miracle so I'm curious why more studies haven't been done using it with the MECFS population.

    At this point, it's really, really expensive. Treatments typically run $1000+ for each IV session and usually a minimum of 4 sessions are recommended for CFS. There are clinics that offer less expensive versions but (of course) the people hawking the more expensive BR+ (brain restoration) version insist that theirs is the only effective way to produce the NAD and the price won't come down until the compounding pharmacy that developed it has recouped their investment.

    All that makes me scratch my head a little bit because it seems like they could recoup their investment faster if it worked and more people did it at a lower price too.

    So is it really all that and a bag of chips? Or just another expensive rip off? I sure wish I knew!

    From MindBody Medicine Center:

     
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  2. Strike me lucky

    Strike me lucky Well-Known Member

    Iherb had a sublingual version of nad not nadh. It was ok but nothing earth shattering. More like a caffeine boost??

    Given iv would probably be very different.
     
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  3. Remy

    Remy Administrator

    Yeah, the only oral version that is supposed to be efficacious is nicotinamide riboside. It's still really hard to take enough to make a difference though according to these people. If you can afford it, taking 1 g/day is probably a reasonable thing to do for your mitos.

    Apparently high doses of plain niacin or nicotinamide are counterproductive too.
     
  4. Strike me lucky

    Strike me lucky Well-Known Member

    The brand i used a few years ago Now brand, i cant find it, i think it was 25mg dosage??
     
  5. Remy

    Remy Administrator

    Yes, I think you're right. It is discontinued now though.

    I don't think we know if oral NAD can make it through the stomach acid. Obviously sublingual would help. I found a thread on another forum that lists some articles that I will post when back at computer.
     
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  6. Remy

    Remy Administrator

  7. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    Remy I did 3 days of NAD IV therapy and it didn't do a thing for me. They didn't even check my NAD levels before treatment. Why? Because they didn't even know how is why? Now you tell me, if you're in the NAD therapy business wouldn't you want to know HOW to measure NAD levels before you even got into the business? Duh Also if you are in the brain restoration business wouldn't you want to measure neurotransmitter levels via urine or platelets?

    Also CoQ10 plays a huge part in the mitochondria and they don't even give CoQ10 in their IVs. Vitamin C and glutathione is about it. There is so much more to mitochondria repair than just NAD. Alpha Lipoic Acid, Acetyl L Carnitine, PQQ, pterostilbene and resveratrol to name just a few other nutrients that should be added into an IV treatment.

    So to answer your questions:

    "So is it really all that and a bag of chips? Or just another expensive rip off? I sure wish I knew!"

    I'd say it's just another expensive rip off. May help the junkies but that's about it and yes you are right that it's outrageously expensive but you have to understand they are just catering to the wealthy families with junkies right now. They need to do clinical trials that measure neurotransmitters, NAD, nutrient and CoQ10 levels BEFORE and AFTER treatments if they want to get any respect in the healthcare.

    Also all the NAD IV therapy clinics in the USA are spin offs of the William Hitt Center in Tijuana and if you read below he was a fraud and a Quack to say the least


    “California attorney Jenelle C Prins, who has investigated Hitt, reports that "William Hitt does not have any undergraduate or medical degrees. In 1987 he was sued by the State of Texas, Case No 87 27882, for fraudulent practices. In sworn documents filed with the court, he admitted that he had no degrees of any type (except for one from what Hitt called 'a paper mill', known as Walden College)." Prins reports that the University of Colorado, where Hitt once claimed to have been awarded an MD in 1952, "has no record of him".

    And what of that Nobel Prize? Hitt claims to have won the Nobel Peace Prize while a member of the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War. This is false, she says.

    The International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War corresponded with me and stated that Hitt had never been a member. Hitt has recently changed his story to say he was a member of the Mexican delegation to the International Physicians et al, but I checked this claim as well and it is also false."

    Hitt claims to have won a "prestigious Eli Lily Award and several other awards. "I called Eli Lily and spoke with a woman there who researched Hitt's claim," says Prins. "First, Eli Lilly does not give out a prize. They do, however, provide grants, but no grant was ever awarded to Hitt."

    "We learnt of his falsity when one of my clients returned from treatment for Hepatitis C in Mexico," says Prins. "When she went to her regular doctor to check her viral load, her levels were higher than when she went to Mexico." Prins says that in this and several other cases, "Hitt doctored test results"..."

    The James Randi Educational Foundation
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  8. Remy

    Remy Administrator

    Thanks for the info! I ultimately decided against it. But I am sorry to hear it didn't help you.
     
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  9. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    Source Naturals makes a 25 mg NAD sublingual tablet of 60 per bottle (Coenyzmated B3) and that's more than what the compound pharmacy that the NAD IV center I went to uses. Theirs was only 15mg at $40 plus shipping. You can get Source Naturals for like $15 off of ebay

    I know those IV clinics give 750-1000 mg per day so if a person took 30 sublingual tablets per day or half a bottle a day that's like $7.50 a day compared to $1000-1300 a day. Yes sublingual isn't as good as straight into the vein but I bet you'll get at least 500 mg a day absorbed.

    ENADA also makes a 5, 10 and 20 mg NADH tablet
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  10. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    Oh after maybe $15,000 worth it might have helped the Chronic Fatigue but I don't know because they were telling me about another patient who came in for brain fog and short term memory loss and he did like 12-15 days and didn't really clear up his problem.
     
  11. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    I had my NAD levels checked here just lately AFTER the 3 days of IV therapy and it was still at only 52 which is very low. So either mine was incredibly low to begin with or those NAD IV therapy clinics are using useless NAD. I've attached the NAD therapy manual that explains how to measure NAD levels. You need to have your latic and pyruvate acid levels drawn then calculated out for the NAD levels (starts at page 56). The South Africans are the pioneers in NAD therapy
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    This is why I'm going to start taking 30 Co-Enzymated B-3 sublingual tablets a day along with HEEL CoEnzyme Compositum tablets:


    "NAD Therapy is usually referring to IV Therapy, but there are supplements one can take if you are not able to get to a clinic for the IV Therapy. An internet search will find NAD supplements. IV NAD Therapy seems to be the quick miracle solution to help through serious illness or addiction, but home supplementation of a good Co-Enzymated B-3, over a longer period of time can be effective as well.

    Addressing NED obviously cures many ailments and addictions, so if one is facing any of the conditions listed in this article, NAD Therapy, or at least home mega dose Vitamin Therapy should be indicated."

    http://realgoodnews.com/healthenvir...ddiction-depression-ptsd-and-chronic-illness/
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  13. doerfast

    doerfast Member


    NAD is not that expensive I checked on Alibaba with many companies that sell the raw powder which I bet 99.9% of the compounding pharmacies here in the USA get theirs from. Springfield Wellness just started the whole NAD IV thing in the USA as they were the only ones doing it so they jacked the prices way up and then started basically training other Docs.

    Now there is a guy in Carmel IN starting his own little franchise selling it at $250K each. I've worked in the healthcare since 1992 and can tell you that the material and supplements they use cost them less than $100 Max a day probably more like 50-60. Sodium Chloride 0.09% NS bag 750ml cost like $20-25, NAD 1000mg powder diluted down then injected into the bag cost probably less than $15 beings it's bought in bulk, unless they are getting the whole IV bag already loaded from the compound pharmacy. Either way with amino acids, tyrosine, 5HTP, Vitamin C, Glutathione etc. you're not looking at more than $100 and that's probably pushing the high side.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  14. Remy

    Remy Administrator

    I live in Indiana so am familiar with the practice of which you speak...
     
  15. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    I spoke with a Doc up in Vancouver CA and he's doing NAD IV therapy and also adds CoQ10 at only $500 a day so that right there shows you these clinics in the USA are charging outrageous prices. Even that Canadian Doc said that was very expensive and you know that he's making a good profit at $500 so I'd say my estimates of less than $100 a day is probably about right on their cost. Maybe when the wealthy junkies start slowing down they'll lower the prices as I know heroin has hit the rich kids hard. Life must be too tough for them huh?

    Remy there is actually two clinics in Carmel, IN doing NAD.
     
  16. Learner

    Learner Active Member

    I hesitate to get involved here, but am interested in the topic.

    I have found absolutely no benefit from nicotinamide riboside, even ramping up the dose, but I know that studies have shown it definitely helps some people.

    However, Enada NADH helps me. I keep it in my wallet and in my car, and pop 1-2 10mg sublingual tablets when I need to function or focus for an hour or two when I'm not feeling up to the task. It improves my energy within 10 minutes.

    The folks who push NR will say NADH can't be properly digested and assimilated, but I've found sublingually it works just fine.

    My friend and I tried both side by side one day, and we found NADH did nothing for her, where the NR did, and for me, it was the opposite.

    I just had a discussion about this with a chemistry PhD friend, and she said there are a lot of reasons for these differences - we're unique individuals. Seems like all the variations of niacin, NAD, etc. have merit, depending on the individual situation...


    When I was doing very poorly, my ND, who is very competent and careful, considered doing either an AMP or an NAD IV for me, but things turned around for me before we needed to go there. They were definitely last resort offerings, not first line treatments.

    I have had dramatic results with various IV therapies. Unfortunately, the prices I see for the range of IVs are more in the $200-500 range vs $100. I've been at this long enough to know what's some of the ingredients cost as well as the fixed costs involved, at least on the west coast, to doubt anyone can offer a quality IV for $100. If so, I'd be suspicious... the price for vitamin C alone has gone up 5 times in the past 6 months...

    IV therapy can be extremely powerful, when used sensibly, with high quality ingredients in a sterile environment.

    It pays to be a wary consumer, ask questions, and understand the science behind what is being offered.

    I worry that people cavalierly doing things to make a buck could result in limiting access or causing costs to skyrocket for treatments my fellow patients and I have gotten great benefit from...and keeping us sick.
     
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  17. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4346380/
     
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  18. Learner

    Learner Active Member

    Thank you for the article!! I take 200mg CoQ10, too. Good to know someone's looked at this...
     
  19. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    Well after much further research I've found out from 4 different Ph.D Biochemist that NAD supplement does NOT cross the mitochondria inner membrane so it's not therapeutic at ALL given via IV as these NAD IV therapy clinics are doing. But I've shown this information to several of these clinics and one even comes back and STILL says that what they are doing INCREASES NAD levels in the mitochondria.

    But as I've shown William Hitt was a true quack and fraud so it doesn't surprise me that his cronies are the same. It's all about the MONEY people but the sad thing is these families are shelling out $12-17,000+ when it's probably just the amino acids, glutathione, Vitamin C, etc. that is curing these addicts. Something they could get for less than $200 a day at a place like IV Express, etc.

    Now if they were giving one of these like shown on this site via IV I'd say it would increase the NAD levels INSIDE the mito.

    The following are precursors (raw materials) from which NAD+ can be produced:
    https://selfhacked.com/2016/12/27/nad-important-increase/

    (Note: See below how MONEY is the driving force as these two BioChemist each push their own products. One Nicotinamide Riboside and the other is pushing NADH supplement)

    Hello

    I think it’s worse than that. NAD+ and NADH have two phosphates, so they are not cellularly available. These compounds are almost certainly converted to NR, which is taken up by cells.

    NR is orally available. We do not recommend IV NAD+.

    Pure NR chloride can be purchased from prohealthspan.com

    Charles Brenner Ph.D
    University of Iowa


    Hello,

    NAD therapy does nothing because NAD+ (the oxidized form of NADH ) does not enter the cell. How should it exhibit an effect if it does not reach the inside of the cell?

    NADH is the only moleciule that passes the cell membrane and increases the ATP energy in the cell. In the cell NADH is oxidized to NAD* and water. Hence NADH is the only molecule able to increase intracellular levels of NAD+

    I have never ever read such biochemical Non-Sense. NR is a charged molecule and a charged molecule can not penetrate a lipid membrane such as the cell membrane.

    We have proven scientifically that NADH penetrates the cell membrane and increases ATP in the cell (see attached publication). On Fig. 4 you can see that only NADH but neither Nicotinamide nor NAD+ goes into the cell and increases ATP energy there.


    Regards,

    Univ. Prof. Dr. Joerg George Birkmayer
    President & CEO
    NADH Handels GmbH
    Schwarzspanierstreet 15
    A – 1090 Vienna, AUSTRIA
    Tel: ++43-1-361699610
    Fax:++43-1-361699611
    info@birkmayer-nadh.com
    www.birkmayer-nadh.com


    A mammalian mitochondrial NAD transporter has yet to be found [16, 44], and it has been shown that NAD is unable to cross the mitochondrial membrane [6], such as in isolated liver mitochondria [47]."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3683958/#R16



    NADH cannot simply pass into mitochondria for oxidation by the respiratory chain, because the inner mitochondrial membrane is impermeable to NADH and NAD+. The solution is that electrons from NADH, rather than NADH itself, are carried across the mitochondrial membrane. One of several means of introducing electrons from NADH into the electron transport chain is the glycerol 3-phosphate shuttle (Figure 18.37). The first step in this shuttle is the transfer of a pair of electrons from NADH to dihydroxyacetone phosphate, a glycolytic intermediate, to form glycerol 3-phosphate.This reaction is catalyzed by a glycerol 3-phosphate dehydrogenase in the cytosol. Glycerol 3-phosphate is reoxidized to dihydroxyacetone phosphate on the outer surface of the inner mitochondrial membrane by a membrane-bound isozyme of glycerol 3-phosphate dehydrogenase. An electron pair from glycerol 3-phosphate is transferred to a FAD prosthetic group in this enzyme to form FADH2. This reaction also regenerates dihydroxyacetone phosphate.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  20. doerfast

    doerfast Member

    This is one of the best supplements you can take for your cells:

    http://www.phoschol.com/

    PhosChol is the #1 Healthcare Professional Brand of Pharmaceutical Grade PPC

    Without PC and cellular membranes life as we know it would not be possible.

    Phosphatidylcholine clearly plays a vital role in human life. Its role is even more important when unhealthy lifestyle choices are made. Excess consumption of processed carbohydrates, sugar and HFCS, alcohol, and drugs, among others, can lead to membrane damage. When cell membranes become rigid and damaged, function decreases, and health and well-being is replaced by disease. When membrane damages are present, PC is in high demand to help form, proliferate, restore and regenerate cell membranes and to enhance membrane-dependent metabolism.
     
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