We know that hepatitis C patients receiving a strong pro-inflammatory drug (IFN-a) that helps them fight off their viral infections and ME/CFS patients have very similar problems with fatigue and identical problems with their basal ganglia.
That suggests that it’s not the presence of an infection which is making them look similar – it’s immune activation. People with hepatitis C who are not taking IFN-a don’t experience severe fatigue and don’t have problems with their basal ganglia. Whatever is going on in ME/CFS the only way to mimic it in hepatitis C patients is to hit them with a very powerful immune booster. (Interferon’s are released by cells to attack viruses.)
That suggests that something more than an infection is going on with people with ME/CFS. Either they have an infection which is prompting an unusually strong immune response (or the equivalent of that) or their immune systems are highly activated.
It’s also true that many hepatitis C patients do experience extreme fatigue, depression, etc. with IFN-a some people sail through the treatment with no problems at all. It’s this dysjunction between a normal and a horrible response that makes this group of patients so interesting. If the researchers can figure out why some people respond so to IFN so poorly they may be able to understand why some people sail through an infection and why others come down with a chronic illness that doesn’t quit; i.e. chronic fatigue syndrome. It’s also telling them a heck of a lot how the immune system causes the symptoms we associate with colds.
This patients then present a possible model for what is going on in ME/CFS.
Biol Psychiatry. 2016 Feb 15; 79(4): 320–328. Acute Changes in Striatal Microstructure Predict the Development of Interferon-Alpha Induced Fatigue Nicholas G. Dowell,* Ella A. Cooper,*† Jeremy Tibble,† Valerie Voon,‡§ Hugo D. Critchley,*¶║ Mara Cercignani,*,** andNeil A. Harrison*¶║⁎
A quantitative magnetization transfer (qMT) imaging was done of 19 hepatitis C patients about to undergo IFN-a treatment and then immediately afterwards and then 4, 8, 12 and 24 weeks later. They also examined their cytokine profiles.
qMT is a new form of MRI which
“exploits the phenomenon of magnetization transfer (MT) between free and macromolecular bound protons, to detect changes in microstructural environment.”
If you can figure that out you know more than me. The key fact, though, appears to be that this new form of MRI, like the new tests for neuroinflammation that are emerging, is able to assess changes at a more detailed level (the “microstructure”) than before. It’s technological developments like these that hopefully will reveal what is going on in chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) and fibromyalgia.
These UK, Italian and U.S. researchers hypothesized that increased cytokine levels which occurred just after the IFN-a treatment changed the microstructure of a part of the brain called the striatum that feeds dopaminergic and glutamergic inputs to the basal ganglia. Andrew Miller at Emory University believes that the problems found in the basal ganglia in ME/CFS may arise from reduced inputs from the striatum.
These researchers hypothesized that individuals with microstructural changes in their striatum would were be more likely to experience fatigue, depression, etc.
They also determined whether IFN-a impacted the insula, a part of the brain associated with interoceptive issues which has been highlighted in fibromyalgia and other chronic pain diseases as well as ME/CFS.
The study found that IFN-a administration immediately caused high levels of fatigue and then about four weeks later increased levels of depression.
The whole brain MRI analysis highlighted changes occurred within four hours of IFN-a administration in a small, concentrated cluster found in the left striatum. They reported that the development of the severe fatigue was “strikingly correlated” with changes in this part of the brain. No correlations, on the other hand, were found between the changes in the microstructure of the insula and the development of fatigue and mood issues.
The authors reported that this region of the brain has been shown to be “neurochemically and metabolically” sensitive to IFN-a. In fact, the authors stated that this small part of the brain displays “exquisite sensitivity” to this antiviral cytokine. Earlier studies finding increased activity (glucose uptake)and fluorodopa uptake suggested this part of the brain becomes more active when exposed to IFN-a.
The authors believe these changes reflect changes in, get this, lactate – which we’re seeing more of in both ME/CFS and FM – and pH in this region of the brain. Increased lactate or lactic acid levels appear to be present in the brains, muscles and possibly guts of fibromaylgia and ME/CFS patients. Increased lactate levels also predicted which GWS patients were able or unable to exercise. Increased brain lactate levels also appears to be triggering migraines when low oxygen conditions are present. High lactate levels, then, are showing up in several related disorders. That’s good news for those looking for a common thread in these disorders.
It turns out that the basal ganglia are “exquisitely vulnerable” to several factors that could be occurring in ME/CFS/FM – hypoxic (low oxygen level induced injuries), viral invasion and neurodegenerative processes. Given what we know low oxygen conditions could fit very well with what is happening in ME/CFS.
Not all immune events are the same. The authors noted that inflammation induced by bacterial infections or allergic events appears to induce fatigue by acting on a different part of the brain – the insula. (IFN-a administration in this study did alter insular activity, but to a much more modest degree than found in the striatum, and the changes in the insula were not correlated with increased fatigue.)
Is this what is happening in ME/CFS and FM? It’s certainly intriguing to see so many factors (basal ganglia problems, lactate accumulations, low oxygen environments) match up.
The best guess at this point is probably yes and no. If you had a viral onset that torqued up your levels of IFN-a then this model might fit for you. If you had a bacterial infection then a different part of your brain might be affected. Other possibilities surely are present.
The Cytokine Question
In the Dubbo studies Lloyd found that high symptom and cytokine levels early in an infection predisposed some people to come down with an ME/CFS-like illness. This study, however, didn’t find any correlation between cytokine levels in the blood and the appearance of fatigue and mood issues.
Instead the authors suggested something similar to what Younger and Miller have proposed – that it’s the reaction to inflammation in the brain that is key – not the cytokine levels in the blood. Both Andrew Miller and Jarred Younger have hypothesized that the central nervous system may get so sensitized to cytokines in these disorders that even normal levels can set off a fatigue reaction.
As the infection receded Lloyd found that cytokines appeared to play no role in the illness; that whatever happened, happened early on. This study in hepatitis C patients suggested that he was right. It found that small changes to one part of the brain occurring with four hours of the IFN-a administration predicted who would become fatigued and, four months later, depressed or not.
A small Suzanne Vernon/Andrew Lloyd study which, in retrospect, is becoming and more intriguing suggested that interferons may indeed play a role in ME/CFS. It found increased expression of an interferon stimulated gene called ISG20 and several mitochondrial genes after an Epstein-barr virus infection in people with severe fatigue.
ISG20 also showed up in a study examining the effects of IFN-a treatment in people with both HIV and hepatitis C infection. It turned out that half the HIV patients in the study experienced mood changes (depression, anxiety, etc.) after receiving IFN-a. Increased levels of ISG20 gene expression after IFN-a treatment were associated with what the authors called “psychiatric toxicity”; i.e. the induction of mood changes by the immune system.
Since increased ISG20 levels have also been associated with a better response to IFN-a treatment it seems that mood alterations are simply part and parcel of fighting off an infection for many.
Using new technology researchers found that the microstructure of a part of the brain (the striatum) that feeds dopaminergic and other inputs to the basal ganglia is altered by IFN-a treatment for hepatitis C.
Changes in the microstructure of the striatum occurred rapidly and predicted which individuals would experience fatigue and depression. The authors believe that increased levels of lactate – a substance found increased in both ME/CFS and FM – and altered pH may set the stage for these microstructural abnormalities.
Prior studies suggested that similar problems in the striatum and the basal ganglia are present in hepatitis C and ME/CFS patients. The alterations are highly associated with decreased “reward” and increased fatigue and may also effect autonomic nervous system functioning and our ability to move.
This is more a “confirmation” of an existing hypothesis, isn’t it, rather than an indication of potential treatment? Being swamped with lactate / lactic acid, to the extent that even the brain is affected. This may also be the problem in FM and associated myofascial pain syndrome and the formation of painful trigger points in muscle tissue – the myofascia gets gunked up with a sticky mess instead of being well lubricated (and enabling easy sliding of adjacent muscle fibres). Lactate is part of this sticky mess, so is calcium, so is hyuralonic acid, and goodness knows what else.
Then the twisted and stuck-up myofascia causes choking and constriction of tiny blood vessels and lymph vessels involved in supply to the muscles, and the whole thing is a vicious circle.
What we really need to get at, is: what is the chicken and what is the egg? What “causes” FM and what “causes” CFS? The inability to clear lactic acid post muscle use, might be what starts the vicious circle, and if so, we need to know “what” de-activates our lactic acid clearing system in the first place? If this is not where our problems start, then where do they start?
I can understand infections or poisoning possibly causing vaso-constriction in the first place, maybe even as an auto-immune response; this may then be the cause of everything else, even the inability to clear lactic acid. I think it highly important for research, to work out WHAT is causing the inability to clear lactic acid; is this a “disease”/dysfunction in its own right, or a consequence of another preceding dysfunction?
Great questions. Julia Newton has recently published an overview of muscle problems in ME/CFS. In the abstract she says
Interesting that she says “perception” of fatigue! Looking forward to reading the review.
Cort, has anyone though of a way that we can clear excess lactic acid?
I don’t know of a way to clear lactic acid but I sure would love to find out.
I would certainly like to know the secret for clearing lactic acid. I am assuming the long term pain after exercise is related to lactic acid buildup and some way to improve that situation would make life alot more liveable!
You should read about the lactate shuttle theory. Lactate is unfairly maligned as a waste product when it is actually a reserve fuel especially critical in the brain.
I realize that lactate is used by the brain for energy. I will check out the shuttle theory more though. Thanks.
In response to several comments here – how do we clear lactic acid?
Chris posted a comment mentioning “lactate shuttle theory”.
As Cort and others will remember, I have achieved massive improvement with a regime including a low carb diet, and plenty of exercise carefully paced. I assumed that what I was doing, was minimising or even avoiding altogether, the production of lactic acid. I hypothesised that burning fat for energy rather than sugar, by restricting my exercise intensity to “fat burning” levels, and by depriving my body of sugar, period, might lead to clearance of the lactic acid buildup.
I believe this has been a success, although I believe that the process of restoring myofascial elasticity is a prolonged one, and possibly proceeds in “layers”. I have been doing more and more advanced stretching programs as well as pushing my luck with physical activities, and am conscious of where the limitations remain. I am conscious of new stretches, often done daily in the spa pool, achieving new “releases” of muscles that had remained “stuck”. I get trigger point therapy as well, focusing on locations where I sense pain and twinge warnings of potential cramp and injury when doing stretches and crunches.
A recent milestone; consider that 3 years ago when I tried to do a conventional “quad stretch”, I could not even grasp my ankle with my leg elevated behind my back – I could barely touch my heel with my fingertips. I gained the ability to do a quad stretch after about two years of following “my” protocol (I also gained the ability to squat down, and then the ability to do burpees). Now I can grasp BOTH ankles and quad-stretch BOTH legs at once (lying on my front, of course).
Now I just read about “lactate shuttle theory”, thanks to Chris on this thread. Apparently the muscles can BURN lactate for energy “instead of sugar” IF they are deprived of sugar….!!!!!!
WOW!! Just WOW!! Is this what I have succeeded in doing without realising the protocol was that good? Cort posted something once about 3 years ago that showed that people with FM improved when following a Ketogenic diet – so the insight was certainly not original to me. I assumed that it was all about lactic acid “not being generated” but can it actually be “consumed” as well? My trainers are baffled by why I can sustain physical intensity that is out of all proportion to my heart rate; because I have almost no sugar / starch in my diet at all, theoretically I should be “weaker” than people that are using sugar for energy. I have no anaerobic capability at all (at least I avoid going there because I associate it with post-exertion malaise still) but I have gained more and more ability to generate power on exercise machines at LOW heart rates. A well trained athletic guy half my age generating the same power, might have a heart rate of 130 while mine is 110! Like I say, the local trainers are baffled. The athletic guy can completely waste me in a “race” by going to a heart rate of 180 + while I refuse to go beyond my comfort zone of 110.
Now I wonder – am I “burning” lactate for energy??? Is there yet another strategic balancing act I can aim at, where I can generate lactate to some extent AND “burn it”? I do not know whether my condition involves lots of long-present lactate being slowly “extracted” from myofascial gunk and other tissues, or whether this might have been “used up” already and I might be “burning” only what I generate.
If true, this hypothesis is huge confirmation of “why” what I have been doing has “worked” so amazingly well!
Thanks Phil and congratulations again on your improvement.
I guess your diet is mostly protein and vegies. Is that correct?
Yes, Cort. My diet is meat, eggs, fish, cream, cream cheese and soft cheeses (not hard ones), full-fat sugar-free yoghurt, almonds, pumpkin seeds, leafy greens, bean sprouts, very occasional small servings of peas/ carrots (no higher starch veges at all), very occasional small servings of berries, mostly water and herbal teas for drinks, konjac noodles for fibre, a special home-baked flax-seed flat-bread for fibre. Lots of supplements.
I don’t know whether there are different dietary paths to improvement, an Australian journalist named Catherine Cashmore told me she improved dramatically from FM with a “fruitarian” diet (even this involved avoidance of the starchiest, sugary-est fruits and veges). Goodness knows what the mechanism is when such differing diets “work”. I also rely on Hair Mineral Analysis testing to guide my supplementation and to some extent, the diet.
Avoiding hard cheeses and also milk, is because elevated calcium is implicated in the condition. Toxic levels of cadmium have been present going back a long time, so if FM can be “caused” by toxic substances, this one would be my particular problem. I eat the pumpkin seeds, and lots of eggs, and use high-sulphur salt on my food, as this is meant to help flush out the cadmium from where it is still deposited in my tissues.
I think the onset of FM may well be due to a combination of causative factors – besides the cadmium problem (and I do not know where this substance came from), I had a thyroid cancer and lost 2/3 of one lobe in the removal operation, and I had chronic stress in my job and life.
But multi-factor protocols that have worked for some, have actually not included “diet” at all. The noted “Wigers and Finset” study utilised low intensity exercise, relaxing daily routines, trigger point therapy and “counselling”. My hunch is that the greater the number of likely helps you use, the faster you will recover. As well as diet and the Wigers and Finset approaches, I would add Guaifenesin, Chi Gong massage from a practitioner who understands FM, large doses of magnesium, and stretching routines done in a hot spa pool. Hyperbaric oxygen too if cost is no object (I had a few sessions but concluded I was improving fast enough anyway without that expense).
I probably also benefit from having changed to a career that I enjoy – I quit the stressful job and became a self employed piano tuner 14 years ago and fortunately have done well at it (within the limitations of my condition). This has also enabled me to devote time and money to following “my” protocol. My dream is to achieve a normal life with home ownership, wife and even children. Being single and remaining that way has given me a lot more options than had I been trapped with dependents and debt.
But I believe there would be positives in having a supportive partner throughout, too, if you have that good fortune. I became very cynical very quickly about the possibility of “support” from any potential spouses because of experiencing the exact opposite from family and “friends”, and in any case I had severely limited capability for earning enough to meet the responsibilities to my own satisfaction. Only in the last year, have I boosted my income to respectable levels and am looking to further positive life goals.
Thanks again Phil and continued good luck with the protocol and ultimately achieving a normal life. Congratulations as well on an income boost- always nice to have 🙂
Phil, your description of sticky stuff gunking up the myofascia and constricting blood and lymph vessels is horrifying. I sure would like to know how to undo the vicious cycle if that’s what’s going on.
I have noticed that hyperbaric oxygen makes me feel much better – maybe this is because of lack of oxygen getting to my tissues. I did it for a month and then it got too expensive.
Absolutely do read my next comment, above – when it gets through moderation. I am very excited, I think there is a LOT of hope.
What you are saying correlates well with my experiences. I was seeing a myofascial release specialist until moving to another city with no one trained to do what I need. Over the course of the past 6 months I have become much stiffer and more painful and afraid I won’t be able to walk pretty soon if I don’t start massage therapy again soon!
I think this all makes sooooo much sense to everyone with FM. I have been fighting for 20 years with no improvement, but 3 years ago I kind of stumbled across the “narrow door and straightened path” to improvement. Do read my further comments above, although it may take time for them to come thru moderation. There is hope, but it takes a lot of self-discipline. But if the researchers can work out better “what is going on”, maybe they can come up with a drug…
Interesting. My question is, after the Hep C patients stopped taking interferon, did they stop having the severe fatigue and depression?
Or do they remain fatigued, like those with ME-CFS?
Pamj, I have a friend who had Hep C. He took interferon and felt horrible. When he stopped he felt better.
Thanks Rachel. I wonder why weare stuck with the “forever fatigue”?
That’s a great question. Apparently its variable; some people do not have symptoms at all; some people’s symptoms stop when the drug stops and some people’s symptoms continue onward for some time….I don’t know if people end up like people with ME/CFS more or less permanently though…
Nice to see positive comments on Andrew Lloyd. I’ve long thought he was on the right track, yet he has got blasted by many CFS sufferers because what he says doesn’t accord with their own view as to how CFS ‘ought to be explained.’ Very unfair indeed.
He’s a complex figure; he’s done some groundbreaking work in ME/CFS and he’s continuing to do good work – and he’s quite conservative on his treatment approach…
Carbon dioxide in air will make more CO2 in your blood and might make you more acidic and contribute also to “Air Hunger”. Even for normal people, CO2 in air can affect your ability to think, so be sure you do not spend many hours in room with door closed and no fresh air. This is common for severe ME patients who are bedridden, spent 24 hours a day in dark room with door closed. CO2 buildup from rebreathing your own exhaled breath is not healthy at 1000 ppmv and higher. See LBL article on topic and CO2 and indoor air quality: http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2012/10/17/elevated-indoor-carbon-dioxide-impairs-decision-making-performance/
If you have “air hunger” or feel room is “stuffy”, you should get CO2 ambient monitor for your room and increase ventilation if >700ppm or so CO2. I used CO2meter.com that I bought new from smileAmazon.com for about $90. Use of CO2 monitors also recommended for classrooms, dorm rooms and anyone bedbound.
You get airhunger (i have it from the beginning that i am sick)if you have low levels of CO2 in your blood. You can get a Bohr effect. I think in ME/CFS you have a probleem is this system. A subgroup is overbreathing (why? Brainstem deffect?). This is a contradiction 🙂
In my opinion, the idea that it is all in the brain is based on a preconception that is not supported by the evidence. If it is all in the brain, why are ME patients more at risk of certain (non-brain) cancers, and more at risk of heart disease?
I don’t think many people are saying it’s ‘all’ in the brain. It could primarily be a neuroimmune condition where the problem is centred in the cns/brain but as research is increasingly showing the brain and immune system are quite strongly linked. I subscribe to this theory and have done for many years since I heard Andrew Lloyd talk years ago. There’s no way in this world that it’s caused by a chronic virus. I think cfs research has nearly given that forlon avenue away after wasting far too much time and energy on it….
I feel exactly the same way, its frustrating, though, that all of phoenix rising is devoted the chronic viruses. Do you have a link to the LLoyd talk, I’d love to watch it?
Don’t you think trialing the MS drugs is ideal in the absence of a chronic virus?
I don’t think its all in the brain either. I think its pretty much everywhere! Brain, muscles, gut and I wonder what the heck lactate is going to have to do with everything.
I’m a fan of the Hammacher Schlemmer catalog (I bought a knee-friendly ‘glider’ that’s still in the box because my fatigue doesn’t give me enough brain power to try to assemble it!), where they offer a portable hyperbaric O2 device for you to give yourself ‘doses’ of O2. Does something like that work, rather, has anyone ever tried one?
I just clicked on “Reply” next to a post by Sally, so I’m trying to respond to her. I just looked up the Hammacher Schlemmer oxygen gadget. I does concentrate oxygen for you to breathe. But there is no pressure, so it’s not equivalent to hyperbaric oxygen. Still, it might be worthwhile. I don’t know. Cheaper in any case.
Again, I’m excited by the lactate hypothesis, even with minimal exercise (walking, stretching) my body feels as if I’ve been swimming for an hour or after a good work-out in the gym which is a build-up of lactate acid and clears normally in a healthy person.
However, what is causing this possible lactate imbalance, why is it chronic and what is it doing to our CNS? Very intriguing.
Discovering what is “causing” it is very important for researchers to focus on, I think. If you read my comments above, you will see that my self-experimenting seems to have found a highly-disciplined lifestyle protocol that replicates “solving” the lactate dysfunction. A drug would be much easier, but what I have sacrificed in lifestyle has been worth the improvement in pain, mobility and energy. Now I just look forward to a nice drug so I can go back to eating more “normally” and not sacrificing so much time to strategically devised workouts.
Congratulations I went through the same things you did and have the great results of restored health and being pain free. I used complete natural food and homeopathic remedies including for pain. Candida Yeast was the bad guy. If you haven’t already look at my website coconutcreamcare where I tell my story.
Joan McDaniel; there is so much in your story on your website that is the same as mine. There are a few minor things I was not aware of before; I don’t use coconut oil or Kale as part of my diet (except there will be some Kale in some of the “mixed greens” I buy). I do use “coconut cream” often as the basis of a spicy sauce, often including turmeric in it.
One important point you relate, that I have not mentioned on this thread yet but is part of my experience too, is that the body has many years of accumulated toxins that need to be flushed out, and if you are doing the right things and flushing them out, you will experience some quite awful symptoms. In the past on this blog, I have referred to my year-long phase of bouts of excessive over-frequent urination, heart palpitations, severe cramp attacks, hot flushes, claustrophobia, and panic attacks. Fortunately I understood, like you do, that this was probably detox effects and that benefit would come from enduring. In any case, I was steadily losing old pains and tensions, losing weight, gaining fitness and flexibility, so on balance I had reason to stay encouraged.
Hair mineral analysis tests during this time showed massive spikes in the calcium level and cadmium level, and fortunately my naturopath (Gary Moller) said that the correct interpretation of this was that these things were undergoing a “dump” out of deep tissue, and that they would fall after a few months. He was right. Magnesium was also depleted and I learned to take very high doses of this – it helps flush out the calcium and possibly other elements.
I too used Himalayan salt, but then switched to Volcanic Black salt as I need the sulphur to help flush the cadmium out. Cadmium deposits will apparently be still present in the organs long after hair mineral analysis tests cease to detect it, so I will continue indefinitely with the approach I am taking. By the time the cadmium showed up in hair mineral analyses in the first place years ago, it would apparently have reached saturation levels in the body organs. I wish I knew what the source of this poisoning was in the first place, I was not working in battery recycling or anything.
I use NO boosters to clear lactate.
Its a arginine aakg.
Massages and sauna and baths also assist as does hot lemon water.
That NO2 Black stuff looks interesting, but I wonder if the object really is “muscle mass gain”, people with FM generally need to avoid that. But if this supplement helps clear lactate, dilate blood vessels and deliver nutrients, it may be of net benefit.
I have suspected for a long time that many miracle supplements are useless to FM sufferers because they never actually get through the constricted blood and lymph vessels to where they are supposed to work. You can’t “dilate” blood vessels that are trapped in knotted-up myofascia. But if you can achieve improvement in the condition by other means, suddenly many supplements have a chance of “working”.
Because I still “hit the wall” rapidly when trying to “run” (a slow jog, more like) I assume I still have a way to go on the cardio-vascular system “un-clog”.
I do think that hot spas might grant some temporary softening of the tissues that constrict blood vessels etc, and also enables stretches of muscles and fascia that would be impossible otherwise.
Thanks for the response. Yes, I started using magnesium early and now understand what all it was doing to help. I didn’t have any test but your hair mineral analysis sounds like it got the situation correct. Too much calcium stored and not enough magnesium. You need magnesium in your cells not a whole lot of calcium. My build up of toxins was because I didn’t always eat well if at all and then it would be snacking on starch. I also was on a low fat high carb plus sugar diet. Once I stopped that and increased my magnesium and iodine using the pink salt, I began to feel much better.
Thanks and good luck
I’ve found that magnesium is crucial for me. Pills are not sufficient. I need to get magnesium shots at least once every 3 weeks. Before I started on shots, I had been taking magnesium supplements for about 20 years and yet I tested low on red blood cell magnesium. And I hurt all over. I was stiff and uncomfortable. And I got painful restless leg syndrome. At first I got 3 shots a week, and all the stiffness and pain went away. I’m assuming that part of the relief came from the relaxation of blood vessels leading to better delivery of oxygen to my tissues. Another related fact – IV magnesium relieves the “atypical chest pain” that I’ve been getting for years. I assume this works by relaxing blood vessels, too.
I’ve been eating low carb for years, but maybe not low enough carb to help the possible lactate problem.
Also to do with lactate, I had a blood test last week that indicated I was high on “anion gap” which, I discovered can be caused by too much lactate. I’ll have to think about going even lower carb (lots of sacrifices involved) and I’ll look around to see if I can find research supporting the idea that arginine can lower lactate. That amino acid can promote things like cold sores, so I’m a bit anxious about trying it.
Good information about the power of magnesium. How many people numb down their enzymes with pain meds when all they need is more magnesium in the cells. Your system needs your enzymes full and operational to react and help protect. Pain pills numb the whole system down you don’t feel pain and you don’t feel much else either. Good luck in your further exploration. I seem to be constantly exploring and learning new things. All I know Is There is a way and never give up.
Joan, something else has helped me a lot with pain. A few months after I went gluten free, I realized that I had stopped getting repetitive stress injuries and inflammations. I used to always have pain somewhere – feet, hands, knees, back, elbow. And then most of it went away. The few times I experimented with eating a tiny crumb of bread of piece of pasta, I got joint pain all over my body after an hour and a half and then nausea and headache that lasted from one to three days. No more experiments! I still had some knee pain which went away when I went 100% dairy free. After that if I had the tiniest bit of cheese, I would get joint pain all over my body after an hour and a half. It’s disappointing to have given up both wheat and dairy, but it’s wonderful not to have painful inflammations all the time. And I get fewer painful bouts of restless leg syndrome.
Another thing I’ve discovered that has helped me with pain is taking co-enzyme Q-10. I had been taking 100 mg a day. Then I wondered whether taking 300 mg would help with the painful restless leg that had been interrupting my sleep. It worked right away! That night no restless leg. I tried going back to 100 mg and the painful restless leg came back. Also 200 mg didn’t do anything. The 300 mg of CoQ-10 worked for a year and a half. Then the restless leg came back. I have no idea why except that restless leg syndrome is known to get worse over time. Now I control my restless leg pain with magnesium shots or IV magnesium.
Hi Greg, I’m sorry, what is an NO booster and where do you get it? What does aakg mean. NO2 black? I am very interested in clearing lactate but I don’t understand your post. Thanks.
OK, I just looked up whether arginine can clear lactate. And yes! It can and does.
But it can also encourage cold sores. And using arginine to increase production of nitric oxide would go against Martin Pall’s NO/ONOO theory of CFS, FM, and MCS. Everything is so complicated!
I don’t know anything about arginine but, I just looked it up. It is available in many natural foods. I don’t see how you can avoid getting it. If you want to test its reaction grab a handful of cashews or walnuts and see. Natural food if it doesn’t help doesn’t hurt either. Walnuts are particularly very helpful in healing.
Foods that contain arginine. wheat germ and flour, lupins, buckwheat, granola, oatmeal, peanuts, nuts (coconut, pecans, cashews, walnuts, almonds, Brazil nuts, hazelnuts, pinenuts), seeds (pumpkin, sesame, sunflower), chickpeas,
Joan, I know about the foods that have a lot of arginine and I do eat nuts and I do not get cold sores from them. I have a friend who can’t eat nuts because she does get cold sores. But taking arginine supplements would give you a much bigger dose. I have a friend who blames his case of shingles on the arginine supplements he had been taking.
I imagine that the effect of arginine on lowering lactate would require supplements rather than just food sources.
Thanks for the update. The only problem with supplements is — it isn’t the same thing — no matter what they say a supplement does not include things we don’t even know are part of the plant. Many allergic reactions have nothing to do with the actual food but the condition of the gut. If you can make money from it they would put it in pill form. I wonder why there aren’t supplements already. Anyway thanks for the update and conversation. I got rid of my lactic acid by first slowing down eating high processed foods and slowly increasing eating food with nutrition not plastic. I gave my body real nutrition to fight toxins and it got rid of lactic acid.
You are right that good quality food is important. It’s necessary. But it isn’t always sufficient. I already eat a nutritious diet with almost no junk food and I’m still sick. Pills don’t replace food, but they can supplement. And they can help.